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The Evils of Vaccines
THE MARKET FORCES OF NATUREA recent TV program on the Ebola virus at Kikwit in Zaire, during 1995 rammed home the message that we are all part of an evolving dynamic natural situation. As with Einstein's Theory of Relativity the phenomena do not stay still long enough to evaluate, and in any case the act of observation changes the situation.
It is no surprise that the Ebola outbreaks - in 1976/9 and 1995 have both centred round hospitals. Recent research into AIDS has shown that any virus [or bacteria] is constantly engaged in evolving and mutating - almost as if staying in one form bored it. Life is after all a form of exploration. It swaps bits of genetic code and becomes something else.
There is a canine distemper that is related, by its genetic formation, to Equine morbillivirus, which is in turn related to human measles.
But Equine morbillivirus causes lung haemorrhage that fills the lungs with blood and fluid and "drowns" its victim. In this capacity it is related to the 'Ebola' virus. It is also 'cross species effective' as the owner of the 14 race horses that died was also infected and died in the same way, in Australia in 1995.
This may be a glimpse of what is a universal situation. A short while ago there was a debate - should we destroy the last surviving samples, in captivity - of cholera. Which had been 'wiped out' by scientific medicine. The debate ended abruptly as nature produced an outbreak of cholera.
It is little wonder that a science that regards nature as 'Cast In Concrete, rather than as a living dynamic entity - which engulfs us all - sees chaos wherever it looks. This arises from a mind set which can only see, or wishes to impose a 'false' or limited order upon nature - which is neither orderly or limited.
The recent downsizing of fertility and an apparent upsizing of homosexuality may all contribute to the orderly action of 'market forces' at work to remedy the "bloom" of humanity to a level the planet can support. It may seem to be chaos to us but is in fact quite 'orderly' - it depends on your point of view.
Meanwhile it may be worth investigating the "cyclic" nature of the viral community - i.e.; in the 1930's Scarlet Fever died out [without the benefit of vaccine] and in the 1990's it reappeared. It seems to have a 60-year cycle. Syphilis may have a 300-year cycle - if AIDS is its resurrection as some assert. Will anyone look into this - I doubt it.
The above was written in 1997, nearly ten years ago. Today in the papers is the story of a Vaccine for the Ebola and Marburg virus. An outbreak of Marburg in Angola, in the month of March 2005 was responsible for the death of 340 of 408 cases. The saving grace of this virus is that it kills the host too quickly to infect many other cases.
Work on the vaccine has taken place in USA, Canada, France and Germany. The interest in the virus is accounted for by the finance given by the Program for Investigation into Biological and Chemical Defence of the US Army!
The current experiment used 12 macaques divided into two lots of six. Four of each set were given the vaccine and then all were injected with one of the two viruses.
The unvaccinated macaques showed symptoms in three days and were dead in six. The other four of each set were alive weeks later and the virus was unable to replicate in their bodys.
In 5 yrs time we may have a human safe vaccine!. WHY would we need it, for the USA Army?
An interesting by blow to this is the strongly advanced theory that AIDS originated with green monkeys. A further comment is the work of Dr moskowitz as it related to measles vaccine. Which showed that people who were vaccinated simply got an atypical variety of measles.
Another aspect is that an attenuated virus may develop the ability to infect other people because it is no longer Self Limiting, by killing the host!
What a wonderful world we live in, where we are terrified of a virus that comes out of China and turns the contents of a bird to bloody porridge , and on the other hand research a biological weapon that will create a hemorrhagic fever!
keypass on 2005-06-07
This is just a forum. Assume posts are not from medical professionals.
OK, gotta give you a comment!
I think the majority of people involved in vaccination are well meaning --most parents trying to do the best they can for their children, allopathic doctors, for example.
The whole of modern western education tends to incline one toward acceptance of the conventional. (Possibly the whole society responsible for such craziness needs some Nat Mur from what I've read on that remedy)
History covers the discovery of cowpox vaccine to prevent smallpox. Doesn't cover homeopathy. Doesn't cover what I once heard (but cannot substantiate) that ____ (I'm blanked on his name--guy who discov'd vaccinating this way) after testing out cowpox vaccine on his son, the son eventually died.
It makes many people feel like something useful is being done, keeping general happiness in general population with powers that be, selling newspapers and TV ad time. Not to mention selling the vaccines themselves, and all the research and development money and kudos.
Then, I suppose, there are some who know that what they are doing is dangerous but do it anyway.
It takes a special kind of person to come to the realization that something is harmful and to do it anyway.
But the same comment about warfare with regard to develoment of organisms also applies to any warfare. A group of people devising more and more effective means to kill, be that what you mention or the crossbow or musket== while others are trying to heal the wounds thus caused or similarly caused by other means.
How about also discussing the issue of forced vaccination programs such as to be able to attend school, or in event of "national emergency"?
I think the majority of people involved in vaccination are well meaning --most parents trying to do the best they can for their children, allopathic doctors, for example.
The whole of modern western education tends to incline one toward acceptance of the conventional. (Possibly the whole society responsible for such craziness needs some Nat Mur from what I've read on that remedy)
History covers the discovery of cowpox vaccine to prevent smallpox. Doesn't cover homeopathy. Doesn't cover what I once heard (but cannot substantiate) that ____ (I'm blanked on his name--guy who discov'd vaccinating this way) after testing out cowpox vaccine on his son, the son eventually died.
It makes many people feel like something useful is being done, keeping general happiness in general population with powers that be, selling newspapers and TV ad time. Not to mention selling the vaccines themselves, and all the research and development money and kudos.
Then, I suppose, there are some who know that what they are doing is dangerous but do it anyway.
It takes a special kind of person to come to the realization that something is harmful and to do it anyway.
But the same comment about warfare with regard to develoment of organisms also applies to any warfare. A group of people devising more and more effective means to kill, be that what you mention or the crossbow or musket== while others are trying to heal the wounds thus caused or similarly caused by other means.
How about also discussing the issue of forced vaccination programs such as to be able to attend school, or in event of "national emergency"?
Bodhitshe last decade
I have probably agonized over the whole vaccination question more than any other issue as a parent.
There is so much out there for and against, it is really hard to know which is the dangerous choice. Both choices create fear. To vaccinate I fear the side effects of the vaccination. To not vaccinate I fear the disease and problems when trying to get my children into school.
I have looked at many websites on the dangers of vaccinations and read the postings on this forum. Still don't know really when or if I am putting my children in danger one way or another. Both sides have convincing information. I have educated myself plenty, just don't know who is right or if there is a middle ground between the two sides.
There is so much out there for and against, it is really hard to know which is the dangerous choice. Both choices create fear. To vaccinate I fear the side effects of the vaccination. To not vaccinate I fear the disease and problems when trying to get my children into school.
I have looked at many websites on the dangers of vaccinations and read the postings on this forum. Still don't know really when or if I am putting my children in danger one way or another. Both sides have convincing information. I have educated myself plenty, just don't know who is right or if there is a middle ground between the two sides.
lmhoopes last decade
Sitting on the fence is not an option.
I once took one of my grandchildren to be vaccinated at the request of my daughter.
THe look that child gave me when they stuck a needle in his arm [ I TRUSTED you] made me swear never to do that again.
I talked to my daughter for a long time and convinced her to resist the emotional blackmail applied by the Doctors.
A point that may not be appreciated by many is the fact that if doctors can get a high percentage of their list vaccinated they get a BONUS!.
I now have two above avaerage , in size and intelligence , lovely grandchildren.
I once took one of my grandchildren to be vaccinated at the request of my daughter.
THe look that child gave me when they stuck a needle in his arm [ I TRUSTED you] made me swear never to do that again.
I talked to my daughter for a long time and convinced her to resist the emotional blackmail applied by the Doctors.
A point that may not be appreciated by many is the fact that if doctors can get a high percentage of their list vaccinated they get a BONUS!.
I now have two above avaerage , in size and intelligence , lovely grandchildren.
keypass last decade
there are other hidden dangers - for example............if babes toddlers have their polio drops and then are taken to the swimming baths (without nappy etc) and should maybe accidentally 'poo' in the water.......waterborne infection can occur if this is within a certain number of hours/days after administration of the drops (I cannot remember the amount of time). I am not scaremongering here - when I questioned my doctor about this many years ago he confirmed this was a possibility, but of course not a common one and not one they wanted to worry parents with!!!!! A lot of reliance is placed on the high amounts of chlorine in the swimming baths!!! I asked this question as I was changing and bathing the babe at home and did not want to catch polio (I had not been vaccinated). Polio was one of the less contentious forms of vaccines at the time my kids were little and I decided on its protection - after reading and informing myself. The faeces can definitely be infectious for a while...
If we were all more informed rather than mystified and frightened then commonsense would give us a lot of help.
Any parents out there should read about the ingredients in vaccines before they decide to put these in their kids!!
Adult travel vaccines are a different matter - adults can inform themselves of the pros and cons and come to a decision. Likewise, some tetanus protection may be advisable depending on the circumstances - altho in most instances you get a shot in the hospital of the stuff anyway if they are in doubt!
Inform yourselves parents - get info from the docs and get info on the alternatives and the myths surrounding some of the information from the docs and decide yourselves - BUT MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION don't be scared into sticking needles into your babes to their detriment. Kids have no choice.....
If we were all more informed rather than mystified and frightened then commonsense would give us a lot of help.
Any parents out there should read about the ingredients in vaccines before they decide to put these in their kids!!
Adult travel vaccines are a different matter - adults can inform themselves of the pros and cons and come to a decision. Likewise, some tetanus protection may be advisable depending on the circumstances - altho in most instances you get a shot in the hospital of the stuff anyway if they are in doubt!
Inform yourselves parents - get info from the docs and get info on the alternatives and the myths surrounding some of the information from the docs and decide yourselves - BUT MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION don't be scared into sticking needles into your babes to their detriment. Kids have no choice.....
erika last decade
I don't know how many times I have gone to the doctor all prepared not to get a vaccine and have been guilted or scared into it. I think it is because both sides have valid points. It is still a fear based decision. I have informed myself, am still confused ( I don't think it is fence sitting, it is confusion as to who is right) and then emotions take over.
lmhoopes last decade
And I must add, either way, whether I do or do not vaccinate, I worry whether I did the right thing. When a vaccination is given I feel upset and I worry and I worry and feel guilty when I don't give a vaccine.
I am just giving this scenario to illustrate how parents who are intelligent and informed end up vaccinating. It is not out of being uninformed or out of not caring as much for our children. It is because there is so much information out there and it is difficult to decipher it all and decide what is right for our children.
I am just giving this scenario to illustrate how parents who are intelligent and informed end up vaccinating. It is not out of being uninformed or out of not caring as much for our children. It is because there is so much information out there and it is difficult to decipher it all and decide what is right for our children.
lmhoopes last decade
By the way, I wish I could make a decision (so maybe I am fence sitting). I have informed myself perhaps too much and don't know which way to turn???
lmhoopes last decade
I too am a parent - informed does not mean it is easy to make a decision, it just means being happy with the decision you make. If you are unable to make a decision then you may be informed but you may not have understood the information enough. It is not that either side is right or wrong in this debate it is what is right for you and your kids.............look again at the information and see what you understand to be right for you and your family...
erika last decade
one thought which i think important --- if a child is sensitive to a disease and may suffer badly because of it then that same child will be sensitive to the vaccination of that disease and suffer badly from it....!!
erika last decade
Thanks Erika. That is a helpful way to look at it. I'm sure I don't understand all of the information I have looked at. I have tried to look at both viewpoints. I'm sure I've looked at some junk on the internet too.
lmhoopes last decade
Also could look at:
statistics of *probability* of actually getting a disease that might be vaccinated against.
*Severity* of disease likely if encountered--including short term suffering and lasting effects.
*Treatments*--Ways to deal with a disease if it is contracted.
*Potential dangers of vaccine* both long term chronic and the occasional bad short term acute reaction.
I've had discussions about this with people re dog and cat vaccines. Some feel that the horrors of say, Distemper/Parvo and a dog dying of it as puppy outweigh the potential for dying young of cancer or other chronics later, for example.
But the majority of dogs who are unvaccinated and otherwise very healthy get only a very mild illness when exposed and then develop immunity naturally. There is also homeopathic Distemperinum though I don't actually know how or where to get it, but it reassures me that something could be done if necessary.
Obviously this becomes a more emotionally charged question when dealing with a child.
statistics of *probability* of actually getting a disease that might be vaccinated against.
*Severity* of disease likely if encountered--including short term suffering and lasting effects.
*Treatments*--Ways to deal with a disease if it is contracted.
*Potential dangers of vaccine* both long term chronic and the occasional bad short term acute reaction.
I've had discussions about this with people re dog and cat vaccines. Some feel that the horrors of say, Distemper/Parvo and a dog dying of it as puppy outweigh the potential for dying young of cancer or other chronics later, for example.
But the majority of dogs who are unvaccinated and otherwise very healthy get only a very mild illness when exposed and then develop immunity naturally. There is also homeopathic Distemperinum though I don't actually know how or where to get it, but it reassures me that something could be done if necessary.
Obviously this becomes a more emotionally charged question when dealing with a child.
Bodhitshe last decade
Imhoopes,
good to inform yourself so as to make wise decisions, make sure your research is based on solid evidence, the homeopathic history of infectious diseases is well documented and this gives the true story. And don't forget the allopathic record states that vaccinations saved many, when in fact modern sanitation was the factor.
salty
good to inform yourself so as to make wise decisions, make sure your research is based on solid evidence, the homeopathic history of infectious diseases is well documented and this gives the true story. And don't forget the allopathic record states that vaccinations saved many, when in fact modern sanitation was the factor.
salty
saltOftheEarth last decade
Well, modern sanitation was *A* factor, but certainly not the only one.
An important thing to remember is that there is still lots of research going on right now. The current data shows no link between vaccines and childhood illness, but that could change. Maybe. Most likely not.
If I were you, Imhoopes, I would err on the side of caution and get the vaccinations done. Maybe there's a chance your child could get ADD or ADHD from them (I doubt it though), but I think that's a much more acceptable risk than the chance of your child getting polio or diptheria; both of those diseases (as I'm sure you're well-aware) are prevented by vaccines, and both are crippling and potentially fatal if contracted.
I'm not interested in scaring you, or anyone, into vaccination. I am, however, very interested in keeping healthy children happy and healthy. The shots hurt, sure, but the diseases they prevent are much, much worse.
Imhoopes, I know you dislike me very much, it shows in your responses to me, but please don't let that affect your decision on what to do about vaccines. I may not know you or your children, but I still care. I say all this out of a sincere concern for your childrens' health.
I do hope that you will protect your children with vaccines against these horrible diseases.
Peace to you. :-)
An important thing to remember is that there is still lots of research going on right now. The current data shows no link between vaccines and childhood illness, but that could change. Maybe. Most likely not.
If I were you, Imhoopes, I would err on the side of caution and get the vaccinations done. Maybe there's a chance your child could get ADD or ADHD from them (I doubt it though), but I think that's a much more acceptable risk than the chance of your child getting polio or diptheria; both of those diseases (as I'm sure you're well-aware) are prevented by vaccines, and both are crippling and potentially fatal if contracted.
I'm not interested in scaring you, or anyone, into vaccination. I am, however, very interested in keeping healthy children happy and healthy. The shots hurt, sure, but the diseases they prevent are much, much worse.
Imhoopes, I know you dislike me very much, it shows in your responses to me, but please don't let that affect your decision on what to do about vaccines. I may not know you or your children, but I still care. I say all this out of a sincere concern for your childrens' health.
I do hope that you will protect your children with vaccines against these horrible diseases.
Peace to you. :-)
Orume last decade
Hahaha! Touché. :-D
Orume last decade
I will go for vaccination of my grandchildern, but, will be on the lookout, for signs of bad effects of vaccination, and try to treat those effects homeopathically.
Avoiding vaccines altogether is too dangerous, but, at the same time, some childern do get affected by them, negatively. But, that is a miniscule percentage, and you can definitely treat the badeffects of vaccination homeopathically, in those few cases.
But, again ,be choosy, in what vaccinations, you want to give. Polio, definitely ,yes, Diphteria, Yes. Typhoid..no..flu..no.
And, a big,big no.. for revaccination...
Take the best of all therapies available. Don't be too dogmatic.
Murthy
Avoiding vaccines altogether is too dangerous, but, at the same time, some childern do get affected by them, negatively. But, that is a miniscule percentage, and you can definitely treat the badeffects of vaccination homeopathically, in those few cases.
But, again ,be choosy, in what vaccinations, you want to give. Polio, definitely ,yes, Diphteria, Yes. Typhoid..no..flu..no.
And, a big,big no.. for revaccination...
Take the best of all therapies available. Don't be too dogmatic.
Murthy
bandarbabu2000 last decade
I think I am comfortable with the balance you suggest Murthy. It weighs out that fear I am talking about which ever choice I make.
I am wondering, what is revaccination? Is this when a bad effect happens and it is time for the next one?
I am wondering, what is revaccination? Is this when a bad effect happens and it is time for the next one?
lmhoopes last decade
Just type 'revaccination' in google, and you have lot of informarmation.
Doctors suggest revaccination, if the first one doesn't take (no reaction whatsoever).
just a sample here.
Response Description
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical primary reaction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clear cut pustule 6-8 days after vaccination
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
major reaction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Area of definite induration or congestion surrounding a central lesion that may be a scab or ulcer 6-8 days after vaccination. The evolution of the lesion is more rapid than following a primary reaction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equivocal reaction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any other reaction or response including:
Allergic reaction
Erythema and a small, evanescent papule present within several days that resolves quickly. These are sensitivity reactions that can be evoked with vaccine virus that is no longer viable. Revaccination is indicated.
No reaction
In some individuals, no take is seen after revaccination, even at long intervals after a primary vaccination. Usually this is due to poor technique, low potency vaccine, or inactivation of the virus at the skin site (e.g. if alcohol is used to prepare the site). Revaccination is indicated using vaccine of assured potency.
In general, the shorter the interval between first-time vaccination and revaccination, the more likely it is that there will be no take or major reaction. Evaluation of the vaccination site on days 6-8 will minimize the risk of missing or misclassifying the "take."
Doctors suggest revaccination, if the first one doesn't take (no reaction whatsoever).
just a sample here.
Response Description
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical primary reaction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clear cut pustule 6-8 days after vaccination
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
major reaction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Area of definite induration or congestion surrounding a central lesion that may be a scab or ulcer 6-8 days after vaccination. The evolution of the lesion is more rapid than following a primary reaction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equivocal reaction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any other reaction or response including:
Allergic reaction
Erythema and a small, evanescent papule present within several days that resolves quickly. These are sensitivity reactions that can be evoked with vaccine virus that is no longer viable. Revaccination is indicated.
No reaction
In some individuals, no take is seen after revaccination, even at long intervals after a primary vaccination. Usually this is due to poor technique, low potency vaccine, or inactivation of the virus at the skin site (e.g. if alcohol is used to prepare the site). Revaccination is indicated using vaccine of assured potency.
In general, the shorter the interval between first-time vaccination and revaccination, the more likely it is that there will be no take or major reaction. Evaluation of the vaccination site on days 6-8 will minimize the risk of missing or misclassifying the "take."
bandarbabu2000 last decade
Sorry for the spelling mistakes.
Never, ever go for revaccination, if the first one doesn't take.
You will see lot of advices to go for it, but, simply ignore them.
Murthy
Never, ever go for revaccination, if the first one doesn't take.
You will see lot of advices to go for it, but, simply ignore them.
Murthy
bandarbabu2000 last decade
I think Murthy means booster shots when he says "revaccination."
Booster shots reinforce the immunity given by the first round. Boosters are weaker than the initial dose, and less goes into the body, so I do not see how they could somehow be worse than getting vaccinated in the first place.
But Murthy is right in that getting the polio and diptheria (TPD) vaccines are very important. You can do just fine without the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) or flu shots -- those aren't really as necessary, in my opinion.
The drawback to not getting the MMR is if you have a daughter -- there is a possibility of her contracting rubella while pregnant, which can lead to very serious birth defects.
But, if you choose to get the TPD for your children, please make sure to get the booster shots as well to reinforce their immune systems. Boosters are really just "mini-shots" and are necessary for immunity against these diseases.
I wish you and your children the very best. :-)
Booster shots reinforce the immunity given by the first round. Boosters are weaker than the initial dose, and less goes into the body, so I do not see how they could somehow be worse than getting vaccinated in the first place.
But Murthy is right in that getting the polio and diptheria (TPD) vaccines are very important. You can do just fine without the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) or flu shots -- those aren't really as necessary, in my opinion.
The drawback to not getting the MMR is if you have a daughter -- there is a possibility of her contracting rubella while pregnant, which can lead to very serious birth defects.
But, if you choose to get the TPD for your children, please make sure to get the booster shots as well to reinforce their immune systems. Boosters are really just "mini-shots" and are necessary for immunity against these diseases.
I wish you and your children the very best. :-)
Orume last decade
I am not talking about booster shots. I am talking about 'revaccination' after a long time.
Once you diecide, to go for vaccination of certain types, one has to get the booster shots as well.
What I am referring is to get revaccinated at say 20 years or 25 years of age.
Please read the articles on google search.
Murthy
Once you diecide, to go for vaccination of certain types, one has to get the booster shots as well.
What I am referring is to get revaccinated at say 20 years or 25 years of age.
Please read the articles on google search.
Murthy
bandarbabu2000 last decade
I was wondering if that was what you meant, Murthy, but by 20-25 years of age her children will no longer be in her care, so revaccinations would not be an issue for her (the decision would be made by the then-adult children).
So I (wrongly) assumed you meant booster shots, as that is a decision she will have to make herself within the next few years.
My apologies.
So I (wrongly) assumed you meant booster shots, as that is a decision she will have to make herself within the next few years.
My apologies.
Orume last decade
Imhoops,
I suggest that re initial vaccination, boosters, revaccination, all of it: if you decide to vaccinate at all, then that you take it case by case and look at research and statistics that are pertinent to the vaccine and your particular child and environment.
It is harder, but better, than a rule that says "always [booster/revaccinate/___]" or "never [booster/revaccinate/____ ".
And you would likely be facing the revaccination issue while child is still underage, eg DT (Diphtheria Tetanus)
I suggest that re initial vaccination, boosters, revaccination, all of it: if you decide to vaccinate at all, then that you take it case by case and look at research and statistics that are pertinent to the vaccine and your particular child and environment.
It is harder, but better, than a rule that says "always [booster/revaccinate/___]" or "never [booster/revaccinate/____ ".
And you would likely be facing the revaccination issue while child is still underage, eg DT (Diphtheria Tetanus)
Bodhitshe last decade
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