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8 year old nightly bedwetting and regular pants wetting

My 8 year old daughter wears pull ups every night because she wets her bed every night. She also periodically wets her pants during the day, sometimes once a week and sometimes 3-4 times a day. She often claims ignorance of the daytime wetting, and I sometimes believe her (she has issues with lying). All daytime pants wetting and most nighttime bedwetting were temporarily resolved when she took oxybutynin but we couldn't tolerate the side effects. What can I give her to help her bladder issues? My husband believes she's just lazy and/or intentionally wetting herself but she's often heartbroken afterwards, sometimes very angry.
 
  ttflutegal on 2017-08-15
This is just a forum. Assume posts are not from medical professionals.
Is it because she does not visit/ avoids toilet? How are her toilet habits? Does she do it surreptiously? Pls tell something more. Why "lying" impression?
 
jawahar 2 years ago
For the daytime accidents, there are some times that she seems to be having too much fun to stop and use the bathroom. However, there are other times when she will take the opportunity to use the bathroom but still wets herself. She sometimes claims to not know she had to go and we don't have a clear understanding of when it happens because she always acts as if nothing has happened and we don't notice until we either smell her or happen to see wetness through her pants. During the school year she will intentionally dehydrate herself by refusing to drink during the school day, likely in an attempt to reduce accidents. They are often worse when she has gluten, dairy or bananas -- she's currently restricted from them due to chronic constipation which appears to be under control with these diet restrictions as well as a daily drink of prune and pear juice.

Aside from the time period during which she was taking Oxybutynin, she's only been dry overnight fewer than a dozen times in her entire life. I used to get her up in the middle of the night to put her on the toilet but she'd usually already be wet, then would be wet again when she awoke in the morning. I had to stop this due to my own exhaustion as we now have an infant in the house.

As for the lying, she does so very regularly. Examples:

"Did you give the dogs water." 'Yes' (though the dish is clearly empty)
"Did you brush your teeth." 'Yes' (though her toothbrush is dry)
"Did you drink your water." 'Yes' (though her full glass of water is still at the table)

As my husband would say, he wouldn't believe her if she said the sky was blue -- he'd have to go out and check it himself.

I don't know if she lies to get attention (she requires a lot of attention to be content) or out of habit.
 
ttflutegal 2 years ago
This problem has been there fromthe beginning ?
 
Zady101 2 years ago
Bedwetting, yes.

Daytime accidents … for the most part, yes. She was a bit better when she was four but regressed a little when she moved (required two full days of driving).

Lying started with her "terrible twos" at 18 months.
 
ttflutegal 2 years ago
More information about my daughter. I don't know what you need so I apologize if this is too much. My primary concern is there pants wetting followed by the bedwetting but I certainly wouldn't turn down help with behavior issues.

First of all, I had my own bedwetting issues but mine resolved before age 7 (I don't exactly recall what age). I would periodically wet my pants until age 11 due to anxiety around strangers (if I couldn't get to bathroom without dealing with strangers then I would wet my pants as I was terrified of being kidnapped). There is no other known family history of bedwetting or pants wetting.

My daughter was colicky as an infant. She was a little late talking and when she started talking it wasn't individual words, it was full sentences.

I don't recall the specifics about her toilet training but I believe we tried moving her from daytime pull-ups to underwear when she was 3.5. She was put back in pull-ups for 2 days when we moved 1500 miles away, (3 months before her 4th birthday). I recall her regressing slightly after this but not the specifics.

She often doesn't seem to realize that she needs to go (or has already gone in her pants). If she says she has to pee them she's usually already peed a small amount and will have a full blown accident if she doesn't immediately get to the toilet. She sometimes complains of needing to pee but nothing comes out. She has a few times complained of her urine being hot. She has indicated that it doesn't hurt to pee unless she also needs to poop.

Pediatric urologist said something along the lines of her bladder is just not fully decorated. He wanted her in daily doses of miralax combined with oxybutynin to address her daytime pee issues. We declined the miralax but tried oxybutynin. It worked phenomenally but increased her behavior issues as well as her flushing info (more on those below). Urologist recommended reducing the dose but we declined and stopped it all together which led to a slow but complete return of day and night time bladder issues.

She had recurring ear infections as a toddler until we reduced her dairy intake. She was also a slow grower -- her pediatrician stated more than once that if she didn't start growing they wanted to run tests on her. She's still on the smaller side and is one of the smaller kids in her grade.

She'll run around bundled up in snow gear in the winter only to take off her gloves and not notice her hands are bright red from the cold until it's time to come inside. But she'll periodically be in a 75+ degree house wrapped in a heavy blanket because she's cold. She gets very flushed with blocky cheeks when exerting herself, especially in warmer temperatures (I also flushed like this when I was younger).

She's smart and manipulative. If there's a way to manipulate a person or situation to get her way, she'll find it. For example she pretended to not be able to spell words in second grade so she wouldn't have to do more challenging words (even though she was entirely capable of spelling the more challenging words).

She's a huge social butterfly. She excels at pulling shy kids out of their shells and will go out of her way to find shy kids to help.

She needs to be the center of attention and requires lots of attention. Her preschool teacher let her run the classroom at age 3 because it was easier than dealing with the meltdowns that ensued if my daughter didn't get her way.

She requires strong boundaries and tests them constantly. When she is reminded to do something she knows she is supposed to do (make her bed, drink water, brush her teeth) then she either mopes or gets angry. She likes to plan things out in her head (we'll have xxx for breakfast then go to the playground then visit auntie whoever then go to a movie … over the top and completely unachievable plans) and either mope or get angry when it doesn't happen. When she stubs her toe or trips she cries hysterically as if she's dying and will carry on dramatically for 10-30 minutes.

On really bad days (thankfully now rare) she rages at a simple no. You can see her fuming but she'll quietly go somewhere else and destroy things. At her worst she shredded a near-full roll of toilet paper, shredded a bar of soap into the shower drain and poured a bottle of conditioner down the drain. Without making a sound.

She didn't seem concerned for others' feelings and wellbeing until after her younger sister was born (10 months ago). She's now improving in this area, mostly in regards to her sister but also with others.

She is a picker. If she has a scab she will pick it. I don't know if it's an incessant need to pick scabs (I've had this issue most of my life) or if she does it just to be able to have a band aid. I suspect it's a bit of both.

I don't know what else you may need. Please let me know if more is needed.

EDITED to add: She also is a very slow eater and is showing signs of reflux (pitted teeth) according to her dentist.
[Edited by ttflutegal on 2017-08-18 13:57:42]
 
ttflutegal 2 years ago
I think I interjected with some comments, so no one is picking up the thread.

Hope Simone or some other prescriber here can help
 
Zady101 2 years ago
Zady- do you want to take this on?

I think the problem is that no one gets alerts now-
And unless you look for threads you replied on
Every day- it is easy to miss things.
 
simone717 2 years ago
No Simone. I feel you are the right person to guide her.
 
Zady101 2 years ago
Hi,

I suggest you google "bedwettingandaccidents.com"
See the explanations by dr Hodges's (which also
Talks about the meds she has been given) and this method is endorsed by the Mayo Clinic.

I would try that method first. As far as her other behaviors- that is a separate issue that remedies can be used for AFTER this
Gets resolved .
 
simone717 2 years ago
Hi Simone,

Thank you for your time and the suggestion. I very much appreciate both but I'm well acquainted with that site and its recommendations. In short, that won't work for us right now.

In long -- We will not use Miralax on my kids due to the risk for serious side effects, especially in individuals like my daughter who are potentially chronically dehydrated. Their enema recommendation is not something I'm able to follow right now as (time wise) I'm already overextend with both her older and infant sisters and (emotionally) the same reasons combined with battling with my husband over something so continually invasive when he's convinced it's intentional behavior.

I guess I'll keep looking for now, and check back in for behavior assistance if ever we get her bladder under control.
 
ttflutegal 2 years ago
Hi-

You stated: pediatric urologist said - "bladder is not fully "Decorated"??
I think this is a typo and you meant "developed"??

I do think there is a physical reason for this- and have no idea
What the dr means by "developed"??

Maybe your husband can have a chat with the dr and get educated
So that he is not blaming her- give the dr a heads up before so he can
Give a lecture to him- otherwise this is abuse and not going to get anywhere
But leave her with shame issues.

It seems that the typical "drug" protocol is
A laxative and bladder relaxer. So if she truly has a good bowel movement
Once a day, that would take the place of an enema
And help.

If she is getting pitted teeth- reflux- she is too acidic.

I can advise cell salts to get her back in balance-
Need following:

1. What does she eat on a normal day?
2. What does she crave and what does she hate?
3. How much water does she drink a day?
4. How often is bowel movement?
5. Describe it- example(watery, broken pieces,
Hard, soft, hard to expel, dark/ light???
6. What does her tongue look like? Coated or white?
7. Has she had antibiotics in last year?
8. Had she ever taken children probiotics?
 
simone717 2 years ago
Hi Simone,

Yes, that was a typo. I did mean 'not fully developed.' Our last visit was over a year ago but I took it to mean that she hasn't yet learned to fully control her bladder though the only testing he did was a brief physical exam. We no longer see that doctor as he pushed us to continue medication despite unmanageable side effects and was very unprofessional when I voiced my concerns. Between him, my eldest daughter's doctor (for ADHD) and the dozens of doctors I've seen (fibromyalgia) I'm done with regular doctors.

1.

Breakfast is usually oatmeal with fruit, buckwheat with poached eggs and fruit, or some variation of eggs with bacon or fruit.

Lunch is usually a sandwich (gluten, dairy and rice free bread). Usually peanut butter and jelly with a side of fruit, sometimes chicken or turkey lunch meat with a fermented tofu "cheese" with a veggie.

Supper is typically chicken, pork or beef (occasionally fish) with either rice, potatoes (usually sweet, sometimes white) or quinoa, plus veggies. Beans once or twice a week.

Fruit depends on the season and what I can get her to eat. Currently it's cantaloupe, apples, grapes, plums, blueberries, cherries. Over the winter it'll primarily be oranges, pears, frozen berries.

Veggies are also based on season. Currently carrot, celery, kohlrabi, broccoli, Peas, corn, collard greens, occasionally Brussels sprouts, asparagus or squash. Over the winter it'll primarily be peas, green beans, corn, broccoli, carrots and celery. We also do a lot with onions and garlic.

EDITED to add: pork fat (from sausage or pork chops) gives her reflux.

2.

She craves sugar. She'll climb shelves in the pantry or to the top of the fridge to get fruit pouches, hard candy or other sweets, sometimes prepackaged cracker sandwiches. She got into an newly opened bottle of belladonna and ate 175ish pellets just the other day because they're sweet. She wants bananas but they seem to constipate her so she doesn't get them. She also likes strawberries, apples, pizza, ice cream and chocolate. She would put ketchup on everything if we let her. She hates fish, broccoli, quinoa, sunflower seeds, nuts, oatmeal, eggs, buckwheat, peaches, nectarines.

3.

Only what we force her to drink. Usually 25 oz plus 8 oz mixed fruit juice (prune and apple or pear).

4.

Usually daily (sometimes 2-3 times a day) though she'll skip 2-3 days if she gets gluten, dairy or bananas.

5.

Usually smooth, sometimes with some small cracks (type 4 or 3-4 on bristol meyer stool chart). Usually one long piece or 2-3 pieces. Usually hard to expel. Dark brown.

6.

Tongue is is coated white, less so at the tip.

7.

No. She had multiple rounds as a toddler (recurring ear infections until we reduced dairy) and maybe a couple as a younger child (strep).

8.

I've had her on probiotics for over a year.

Thank you,
~Sara
[Edited by ttflutegal on 2017-08-19 20:47:48]
 
ttflutegal 2 years ago

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