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How to antidote without using a remedy... Page 2 of 2

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Also reports a lessening in craving and consumption of sodas.
BeginningHomeopath last decade
Patient says that when they are around the house they walk around with little clothing on, and take off extra clothing when possible.

Also in 100 degree weather they are now leaving the air conditioner off as the constant noise bothers them. And less desire for cold.

Also less of a craving for cold drinks.
BeginningHomeopath last decade
1 week after the olfaction dose of 6c there are a variety of psoric (acne) and sycotic (small circular warts like tiny drops of water) forming daily.
BeginningHomeopath last decade
This patient is reporting going several days eating almost nothing at all. A few cookies one day. Almost nothing at all the next. Only drinking a few sodas and some water. The patient is sleeping until 3pm and is going to bed around 4-6am.

Is this still an over-aggravation?
BeginningHomeopath last decade
'Just wait and watch. Even if there is barely perceptible improvement happening, with centesimals, you must keep on waiting.'

I thought that one of the benifits of the 6th Organon is that once the beneficial response of the dose has passed it's peak point, you can regive the dose, and that this speeds the cure.
BeginningHomeopath last decade
6th Organon is exclusively for LMs
sameervermani last decade

It is often said that Hahnemann's introduction of the medicinal solution was only for the LM potencies and that he used his centesimal potencies dry. This is not the case. For a least during the last years of his life Hahnemann used both his centesimal and LM potencies exclusively in the medicinal solution with the addition of a dilution glass. In 1843, just prior to the Master's death, Hahnemann sent Boenninghausen two cases in which he used the C and LM potencies in exactly the same fashion. This proves two important points; first that the new methods of using the aqueous solutions is for all homoeopathic remedies. The second point is that Hahnemann considered the two potency systems to be complementary and used them both to increase the range of the homoeopathic pharmacy. Now he had 6c to 1M centesimal and 0/1 to 0/30 LM potencies at his disposal.



gavinimurthy last decade

5th Organon is for the centesimals in water, but I have time and again said that the repetition needs to be much much more carefully done with centesimals, and that is the reason why LMs came.

This case is yet another manifestation of the dosage gone wrong from too much repetition of centesimals. I know you have different views about this.

You can talk to David Little himself and ask his views about repetition of 200c and above. He will admit to the caution necessary here. 200c will not bear more than 2-3 doses of repetition without producing accessory symptoms. I will stick by this.

Hahnemann primarily used low potency centesimals in water, and with high potency (200c and above), the results were not good. This was the very reason LMs were designed to have the penetration of the higher potencies and yet the gentleness and suitability towards repetition to speed up cure.

sameervermani last decade
The reason for this is the following:

C potencies already have so many sucussions built in them that when you sucuss them 10 more times, it produces a tiny change in their dynamization e.g. a 200c sucussed 10 times only increases the dynamization by a factor of 10/2000 or 0.5% as 2000 sucussions are already built in it. Such a small change in dynamization is not perceived by the vital force, and it is viewed as same HIGH potency impinging upon it again and again.

This problem does not occur with LM potencies as there is no weight of strong sucussions in LMs. The response to the LMs is very fast and exhausts itself very quickly (because of low number of sucussions built in them), and the body receives 'perceptible change in dynamization' very well.
sameervermani last decade
And, this is precisely the reason why you will never find potencies like 31c , 32c..or potencies like 201 c, 205c.. or 210c.. or 215 c.

This is also the reason why you have potencies so closely spaced at lower ends of the C scale, 3c, 6c, 12c, 15c, because all these have a perceptible enough difference in dynamization.

The perception of vital force is not linear.
sameervermani last decade
Just for the sake of record, I never said centesimals should be given dry.

I agree, that they are best given in a medicinal solution. It is with REPETITION of 200c and above, that I have a problem.
sameervermani last decade
Murthy, and Sameer,

Not sure if you noticed, but this very article is the one I've linked to from ABC Homeopathy profile since I joined.
BeginningHomeopath last decade
From the article:

'For a least during the last years of his life Hahnemann used both his centesimal and LM potencies EXCLUSIVELY in the medicinal solution with the addition of a dilution glass.'

(My added emphasis in caps.)

I suppose that Hahnemann always used a dilution glass with all C potencies in his later years.
BeginningHomeopath last decade
As I said, try repeating with a dilution glass with 200c and above and see how many doses can a patient tolerate without any problems.
sameervermani last decade
Are you saying that the addition of a dilution glass with the C potency causes problems? Is there a reason not to do this or is it just ineffective? Did Hahnemann use a dilution glass with the C potencies after the 6th Organon?
BeginningHomeopath last decade
I am just saying, there is a limited number of times a 200c will be received well by the vital force, with or without a dilution glass, with or without sucussions and this is very different from LM potencies.

Nothing more.

Let us agree to disagree, I have found this out the hard way, and will stick to it :)
sameervermani last decade
By David Little


The high potency Cs are diluted more times then the LM potency although they receive less succussions at each dilution level of potency. The higher potency Cs like 200c and 1M have a smaller amount of substance, and more commutative numbers of succussions and dilutions than the LM potency.
For this reason, some persons think the LMs are low potency remedies. The LM potency, however, has a much larger dilution ratio that greatly transforms the medicinal qualities of the LM remedies. In footnote f to aphorism 270 of the 6th Organon (O'Reilly edition) Hahnemann suggests the following:

'In earlier instructions, I specified that a whole drop of a liquid in a given potency be added to 100 drops of wine spirit for higher potentization.
'But meticulous experiments have convinced me that this proportion of the dilution medium to the medicine being dynamized (100:1) is much too narrowly limited to develop the powers of the medicinal substance properly and to a high degree, by means of a large number of succussions, unless one uses great force.'

The Founder realized that continuing to increase the number of dilutions and succussions of the centesimal potency did not fill the desired therapeutic lacuna in his new healing art. He came to see that the 1 to 100 dilution ratio is limited by its smaller dilution factor so he began to experiment with new larger dilution ratios rather than raising the C potency to higher and higher degrees.

He also noticed that when strong succussions were used in such a small dilution medium as the centesimal 1 to 100 ratio it makes aggressive medicines prone to quick aggravation and unproductive secondary curative effects in the long run.

'With a ratio of the dilution medium to the medicine as low as 100:1, very many impacts by means of a powerful machine, as it were, are forced in. As a result, medicines arise that, especially in the higher degree of dynamization, almost instantaneously but with stormy - indeed dangerous - intensity, impinge on patients (especially the delicate ones) without bringing about an enduring, gentle counter-action of the life-principle.'
Once again we see the importance of the balance of the primary action of the remedy and curative response of the vital force. When too many dilutions and strong succussions have been forced into the higher centesimal potencies it makes medicines that are prone to aggressive primary actions and strong aggravations that do not produce an 'enduring gentle counter action of the life principle'.

Such furious or prolonged aggravations are to be avoided at all cost as they disrupt the natural symptom pattern, waste vitality, and complicate the cure.

The LM potency, on the other hand, is given in the smallest liquid dose so it produces a mild primary effect and a long enduring gentle counter action of the vital principle.

During the period of the 5th Organon (1833) Hahnemann used the unmodified liquid dose made up each time from 1 or 2 poppy seed size pellets. In aphorism 29 of the 5th Organon Hahnemann described how the centesimal method works. He wrote that the similar homoeopathic remedy 'pushed into the place of the weaker natural disease' against which the instinctive vital force was 'compelled to direct an increased amount of energy'.

The idea of pushing into place and compelling the vital force to increase its energy against the remedy is based on the phenomena of the homoeopathic aggravation. The methods of the 4th and 5th Organon are based on a crisis-like aggravation in contrast to the gentle medicinal solution and the non-invasive LM method.

Aggravation in the 5th edition (1833)
The centesimal model of cure still involves the idea of crisis where aggravation of symptoms compels the vital force to increase energy in order to remove the remedy disease and begin convalescence.
The idea of crisis as an integral part of the cure is very ancient. This is before Hahnemann discovered the non-invasive method of the LM potency, the medicinal solution, and the split-dose. Vide aphorism 279 of the 5th edition (1833).

'The pure experience shows UNIVERSALLY...

The need for aggravation was also stressed as an integral part of cure in aphorism 282.

'The smallest possible dose of homoeopathic medicine capable of producing only the very slightest homoeopathic aggravation, will because it has the power of exciting symptoms bearing the greatest possible resemblance to the original disease (but yet stronger even in the minute dose), attack principally and almost solely the parts in the organism that are already affected, highly irritated and rendered excessively susceptible to such a similar stimulus'.
Hahnemann goes on to say that this medicinal disease alters the vital force that rules the susceptible parts to a state of very similar artificial disease 'so that the living organism now suffers from the artificial medicinal disease alone, which, from its nature and owing to the minuteness of dose, will soon be extinguished by the vital force that is striving to return to the normal state'.

The idea of a crisis-like aggravation compelling the vital force to increase its energy was part of the old dry dose and unadjusted liquid dose method of the 1830s.

In the 6th Organon Hahnemann replaces the model that includes the necessity of a aggravation-like crisis with the idea that the dose can never be made so small that it cannot overcome the disease without aggravation.

In the LM model aggravation at the start of treatment is a sign of too large a dose or too high a potency and unnecessary repetition of the remedy. Vide aphorism 279 of the 6th Organon (1842).

'This pure experience now shows UNIVERSALLY that:
1. if considerable corruption of an important [vital organ] organ does not obviously lie at the base of the disease (even if the disease is chronic and complicated) and


All of the references to the need for crisis-like aggravation to push the remedy in place of the natural disease and compel an increase of energy of the vital force are removed from the 6th Organon. There is no need to force, push, compel, or aggravate in the non-invasive LM method of the 1840s.

This represents a shift in the homoeopathic paradigm from compelling through aggravation to a completely non-invasive method of posology. In Hahnemann's advanced methods there is no need of aggravations, crises, over medication, antidotes, long periods of waiting, or any excess counter reactions.

All these side effects have been removed from the homoeopathic system of the 1840s.

The old dry dose method is like a roller coaster ride as first comes the homoeopathic remedy, then comes waiting out the crisis-like aggravation, then comes waiting out any improvement, and then comes waiting for the relapse. Then the dry dose is given again and the whole 'up and down start and stop process' begins all over again.

The idea that aggravation is necessary is common among 4th and 5th Organon homoeopaths, especially those who use too many dry pills as a dose. This is because too many pills of the high potency centesimals can cause aggravations that can run for days, weeks, and months.

Hahnemann noted clearly that too large a dose (too many pills) will cause an aggravation even if the potency is correct. Many consider aggravations necessary because the idea of the need for aggravation is over stressed in the Homoeopathy of the 1820's and 1830s.

To overcome these side-effects Hahnemann used the medicinal solution of the LM potency made from 1 poppy seed size pill in a minimum of 7 tablespoons. From this solution 1, 2, or 3 teaspoons was stirred into a glass with 8 to 10 tablespoons of water and 1, 2, or 3 teaspoons was given to the patient.

In this method the size of the dose is greatly reduced as the potency is gradually increased so that the vital force never receives the same exact dose twice in succession. In this way, the vital force can receive the single dose or a series of doses in medicinal solution without the aggravations witnessed in the dry or unmodified liquid dose. In this way, we can speed the cure to one half, one fourth, or less than the time of the old method.
sameervermani last decade
I am not disagreeing. I am asking and learning. You are an expert. I am just a beginner. Dosing is the area I understand the least, and so I am asking questions to learn.

What is the reason not to get a Calc-C LM 1 for this patient. Do you think they will need a different remedy or that it would not be wise to move them to LMs?
BeginningHomeopath last decade
Well, when a remedy has been over dosed in the higher centesimal potencies, and there are accessory symptoms present, that is not the right time for LM potency to be given, as it will cause further aggravations owing to their high penetration.

In fact, no potency of the remedy other than a very low potency (6x or 6c) in a single dose to reduce aggravation should be given, (which you have already done) once there have been problems with a remedy. Any more doses will just compound the problem.
sameervermani last decade
I see. I did not know this. When is a good time to move a case from the C potency to the LM potency?

Is 6x the same as 6c? I do not understand the x potencies? I assume they are even higher than the Cs? Can you move from a higher potency to a lower potency of the same remedy? I thought you were only supposed to move up?
BeginningHomeopath last decade
A good time to move a case is after 30c or even 12c generally, as by this time you can ascertain the sensitivity of the patient as well as the choice of the similimum.

I have seen some people exclusively treat with LMs as well but I think this should be done by someone who has mastered the materia medica completely which I am a long away from doing. I have seen some extremely good homeopaths in India who move to LM after 6c.

I myself prefer moving to LM1 after a 30c once I am sure about a favorable response, and the disease state still points to the same remedy after the response to 30c has halted.

X potencies have a dilution ratio of 10:1 and that is different from C potencies where the dilution ratio is 100:1. So, in general a C potency is stronger than a X potency. X potencies affect more at the physical planes especially the lower ones, after 12X or 6c , you start crossing the avogadro's limit and that is where the medicines start becoming truly dynamic.

Moving to a lower potency can be done at times to tone down aggravations.

A different potency of the same remedy taken in the minutest of doses replaces the previous artificial diseases that have attached with the vital force. This makes way for application of anti-dotes at times.

That is, if someone has aggravated greatly from let's say an LM or a 200c or a 1M, I would first give him the same remedy in 6x olfaction , once his body is in a calm state, and then apply anti-dotes one by one to give relief.
sameervermani last decade
I see. How do you choose which cases you will keep on C potencies and which cases you will move to LMs?

I imagine that India has

Do you often start cases on 12c, 6c, or 3c? I think in the cases I've been looking at here you start some cases with 30c and some with 200c? Is this based on how sure you are of the remedy or something else?
BeginningHomeopath last decade
I keep all my online cases on C potencies except in very rare circumstances. This is also in part due to the difficulty in giving complicated LM instructions with dilution glasses and sucussions. I start with 200c where I am more sure of the remedy.

In face to face cases, I feel more confident of moving to LMs once I am sure about the remedy choice after the 30c.

I almost always start with 30c except in cases where I know that the patient is a hypersensitive where I start with 6c.
sameervermani last decade
That does make sense. In America, the 30c is available, and often the 200c, and sometimes the 6c, but for other doses, LMs, and often even 6s, you need to order them. The patients I describe can only get 30Cs at the store. Other potencies I have to ship to them.

I wish that America had more quality homeopaths. And I wish that homeopathy was as prevalent here as it is in parts of India.
BeginningHomeopath last decade
Do you think that this remedy might not be right? If you have some questions that might confirm or refute the remedy that could be helpful.

I see many elements in this case where Calc-C seems to be the indicated remedy over this patient's entire life. For example feeling faint walking up stairs up until age 14. Even in his 30's the patient doesn't go to movies with friends because he gets emotionally distraught seeing even fictionalized violence or suffering.

I am open to the idea that there might be other layers or some other reason for another remedy. Or even that a different remedy might be indicated.

This patient has never had any major physical complaints in their entire life. All the symptoms going back to 9-12 with ADD/ADHD, and into adulthood with depression have been psychological.
BeginningHomeopath last decade

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