≡ ▼
ABC Homeopathy Forum



Similar posts:

homeopathy versus herbal tinctures 2


The ABC Homeopathy Forum

Are mother tinctures homeopathy or herbal medicine?

I would like to know if mother tinctures qualify as homeopathy
Since they do not follow the principle of like cures like.
  Teupne on 2016-10-09
This is just a forum. Assume posts are not from medical professionals.
It is a separate branch of medicine called phototherapy. It is sometimes used in conjunction with homeopathy, as they won't interfere with each other.
gavinimurthy 7 years ago
They are certainly homeopathic because the method of preparation of mother tinctures also is unique to itself. This process is innovation of Dr.Hahnemann. Mother Tinctures(MT) are just like raw materials for further dilutions, they are like foundations. Can we call foundation itself as building? No. But we can't imagine a building without foundation. Invention of homeopathy began with MTs only. Later, Dr. Hahnemann discovered that potentisation gives better results. MTs do work on the the principle of homeopathy but their applications as compared to potencies are very limited because the energy in them is not completely unleashed unless they are potentised. This is the reason why their use in constitutional therapy is limited.
DrKulkarni 7 years ago
Thanks for replies.but further clarification is needed.

Mother tinctures have to work on the principle of opposites balance as in herbals.for eg. Heat conditions balanced by cool Mt like mint, khus etc.

However by homoeopathic logic same mint on dilution to higher potencies should be indicated in cold conditions.
Is the reasoning correct? If correct it means that mints properties/principle changes from opposites balance to like cures like on dilution.

Kindly clarify.
Teupne 7 years ago
Could you please let me know if you are a medico or a non-medico? As you are asking question on basic principles of homeopathy, I will have to reply you in accordance with your background.
DrKulkarni 7 years ago
I am an engineer and avid reader.i have read about homeopathy ayurveda and other systems mainly for personal health.
I found ayurveda logical simple and effective.
However based on personal experience only and my studies and innate logic I fail to understand homeopathic logic which I am sure several practitioners themselves find difficult.

Having said that I am an open minded scientific person willing to learn anything helpful.But need solid convincing be theoretical , heuristic whatever with ultimate aim to understand fundamental reality of things.
Teupne 7 years ago
You say you are reading for personal health and you have already started prescribing and advising on the forum. I just hope you don't misuse your knowledge.

However, before coming to your main query, I would like to introduce you to homeopathy albeit, in brief.

Yes, as you rightly point it homeopathic (not logic) principles are difficult to understand. This is the reaso why you see most homeopaths practicing allopathy. Every system of medicine has it's own pros & cons. Among these main three medical systems (barring surgical advantages), Ayurved and Homeopathy are the best systems of healing among the major healing systems. I do not condemn any healing system for that matter because I think doing so without having in-depth knowledge of them is not right. I have closely seen, practiced and understood Allopathic and Homeopathic systems. So, I can confidently comment about these two systems. As far as medical healing is concerned Homeopathy is not only logical but the most scientific system as compared to allopathy. People are engrossed in collecting material evidences (lab reports etc) for their utility. There fore it is difficult to understand the homeopathic mode of working.

But some contemporary homeopaths have proven without any scope for arguments (for people with rational mind) how homeopathy works scientifically on basis of physiology, pathology, embryology, genetics, etc.

Homeopathy is not only scientific but also based on eternal principles. This is the reason why homeopathic medicines have not become obsolete since over 200 years and work equally efficiently even today. Just for another simple example, allopathic system boast of advancement but just go on listing the number of diseases that are labeled 'incurable' by allopathic system of medicine - can-cer, asthma, rheumatism, diabetes, hypertension, thyroid, menstrual problems, leucoderma, psoriasis,.... the list is endless. These diseases were incurable 200 years ago and even today. While homeopathy has proven it's superior capabilities repeatedly in all these diseases ever since it's inception 200 years ago. As far as I know even Ayurved comes very close to this.

Well, all this extra note was because you found homeopathy bit illogical.

Now, coming to your main query. "Mother tinctures have to work on the principle of opposites balance as in herbals.for eg. Heat conditions balanced by cool Mt like mint, khus etc." I do not know why have you come to this conclusion. Actions of MTs is not purely on opposite basis. If so, why can't you use mint juice itself instead of some mint preperations of allopathy like lozenges? Lozenges are prepared by concentrated extracts and with lot of processing while homepathic MTs are pure original extracts of herbs. Not only herbs, but even some chemicals (like acids), animal products (like snake poison), pure energies (like solar, magnetic, etc.) also are used for preparation of MTs. How would you apply logic(?) of opposites or herbal actions to these products?

Even herbs as you think need not act always on basis off opposite action. They often act by virtue of the properties of their active principles which have some dynamic actions in biochemical processes of our bodies. It is not as straight as applying ice to a burn or sunstroke.

As I already said, the method of preparation of homeopathic MTs is unique to homeopathy and MTs can be considered as raw materials of potencies just like foundation of a building. We can't say foundation of a building as building itself and dwell inside it. But we can't build a building without foundation thinking it is useless for dwelling. MTs are not entire Homeopathy but they are part of it.

Well, actually, this topic is out of scope of forum post as it requires you to teach entire homeopathy. So, I hope this info at least addresses your query to a reasonable level.
DrKulkarni 7 years ago
Thank you doc. I appreciate your responses to my queries.

You write well, are learned and your clarity,conviction, knowledge and passion shows in your explanations.I also appreciate the good work you are doing on this forum .

I have seen ayurveda saving lives firsthand.Thus want to promote it and help others.

I despise modern allopathic doctors who are closed minded greedy and arrogant. I doubt if they can truly cure anything other than minting money.

In general I lament lack of quality doctors in ayurveda and perhaps homeopathy.
Teupne 7 years ago
True, there is scarcity of good doctors both in Ayurved and Homeopathy. The basic reasons for this is the substandard educational system and lack of diligence in Indian doctors as well as public. Moreover, there are many rumors spread about these two systems since long time. One more reason is the different streams of healing system instead of co-coordinating with each other for betterment of society work independently like political parties.
DrKulkarni 7 years ago
Cure mathod
[message edited by DrManojVEDI on Tue, 08 Nov 2016 17:01:58 UTC]

(This post contains an image. To view the image, please log on.)

DrManojVEDI 7 years ago
In Organon (aphorism 260) Hahnemann advocates not to take any MEDICINAL HERBS (any plants that have medicinal properties) alongside homeopathic remedies. His reason: because it affects/stimulates the vital force and therefore can overwhelm it, making it harder for the patient to recover. So the answer to the question depends on how "homeopathic" is defined. One could argue that medicinal herbs are homeopathic too, because they affect the vital force (in the sense of proving, not only symptom redirection. I've read somewhere about chronic effects in tea drinkers, we all know how it goes with coffee drinkers - they have headache - which is actual proving, secondary effect of coffee use - until they get their coffee, then they get better, etc. This is not even mother tincture. Also, herbs might interfere with homeopathic meds in sensitive people.
[message edited by cosmicweaver on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 02:33:51 UTC]
cosmicweaver 7 years ago
MY basic point was since mother tinctures operate on herbal active principles only they are unhomeopathic and their mode of operation is herbal one.Hence they should not be prescribed by homeopaths in garb of homeopathy.

Is there any precedence for use of MT by Hanheman, kent, Clarke, boerick others? What is the justification?
Teupne 7 years ago
Cosmicweaver how can you argue that herbs could be deemed homeopathic since their effect is not based on like cures like.

Quite the opposite. Herbs mostly work on principle of opposite balances, basic principle of ayurveda and a common sensical principle.

You might argue that both homeopathy and ayurveda work naturally with our innate healing force to expedite healing. That I can understand.
But as per current understanding mode of operation differs. Like cures like and opposites balance.
Teupne 7 years ago
'"mode of operation" is herbal one'

Thing is, the way you ask the question, it does not compute. I mean to say you separate it but it's more wholesome. I think it was a French homeopath Gallavardin who wrote about these things (but I am not 100% sure).

Every medicinal herb has two effects, immediate and long-term. The immediate one is what you call "herbal mode of operation". But both are part of the proving picture.

Coffee has immediate alertness and excitement, per example, while secondary effect will be headaches induced by long-term coffee use - and they get better by taking coffee (like heals like). Same goes for any medicinal herb. You have immediate effects, which are the ones recognized in herbal medicine as healing benefits, and you also have secondary effects, which are other part of the proving - you see it when you use something much and over time. Both are part of the homeopathic proving. Just open the symptom list of coffea cruda, you will find both are there.
Ok, corrected wrong link now
[message edited by cosmicweaver on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 03:29:26 UTC]
cosmicweaver 7 years ago
Dear Teupne

Ayurved ;allopathy both also have 'like cure like' .best example is snake poison.we also use herbs in 'like cure like' mathod.ex detoxification

I don't think in near future a doctor can cure patient with one medical system.MTs are pure herbs.

Modren allopath for kidney stone suggest homeopathy.

Problems only with ayurvedic doctors;they don't even take allopathy in case of emergency. You can see how ayuevedic and homeopathic doctors died ;demanding homeopathy in heart attack.ex rajiv dixit

If we use medical systems
Homeopathy and homeopath is still child;need to grow up;
Ayurved and ayurvedic doctors should learn something for their rude behaviour.
If both of them ready to learn; allopathy not even near to them.;not in emergency.

In skin disease/allergy allopathy will fail in 90/. of case but they making big hospitals;why ?;bc people are idiot.
[message edited by DrManojVEDI on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 03:57:50 UTC]
DrManojVEDI 7 years ago
Dear cosmic weaver

You fail to grasp my reasoning.

In ayurveda if a person is very drowsy, sleepy to counter that coffee may be prescribed having stimulating effect .In homeopathy same coffea cruda potentized would be indicated for sleeplessness, insomnia on like cures like principle.Do you agree?

Further your understanding of herbal mode of action is incomplete. You said long term coffee causes headaches and same are relieved by coffee(like cures like) God forbid No!!. If coffee causes headaches it will not relieve it but exacerbate it further over time as per ayurveda.Correct me if I misunderstood you.

Like cures like is never used in ayurveda as per my knowledge and understanding. Kindly give examples. I could not get snake poison /detox example.Agreed that in emergencies if condition is life threatening allopathy should be used.

Yes MT are pure herbs and as such unhomeopathic.
[message edited by Teupne on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 07:39:47 UTC]
[message edited by Teupne on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 07:45:19 UTC]
Teupne 7 years ago
Dear Teupne

I totally agree that in herbal medicine and homeopathy indications will often be opposite for the same substance as the proving is progressing. I believe the reason is in the wide range of the proving. There are primary and secondary effects in the proving. Crude form will give mostly primary ones. Thus the different effects. I'm not saying I'm correct on any of this - I am also a researcher like you and that's just what I've come to believe.

"You said long term coffee causes headaches and same are relieved by coffee(like cures like) God forbid No!!. If coffee causes headaches it will not relieve it but exacerbate it further over time as per ayurveda.Correct me if I misunderstood you."

Try to drink coffee long term - anyone can empirically confirm what I said. You will start getting headache from this which you did not have before, and this headache will be relieved by drinking coffee. In crude form you get secondary effect (here headache) if you use a substance for a long time period, repetitively.

But yes you are right that it will exacerbate headache over time, enhancing the secondary effect. The potency is too small so it has to be repeated often. Maybe the reason is incorrect potency to act as like heals like? It seems if you take something daily, overtime, it stacks up as if it were a higher potency. If you take a herbal remedy just once or a few times, it can't act that deep. Take also common sugar. There is crankiness in the proving, and these people crave sugar because they instantly feel better eating crude form (like heals like). But it cannot heal them in the long run, they have to repeat it and that worsens their symptoms.

I hope I understood what you're saying. I see it more like a spectrum while you see it as two divided ways of action. What I wonder is, if you want to divide the effects of substances based on their concentration, where would the border be? Where exactly does homeopathic potency start then?

Btw, thanks for the interesting conversation.
[message edited by cosmicweaver on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 12:19:15 UTC]
cosmicweaver 7 years ago
Dear Teupne

Read it ;It is in hindi so i give you direct link unable to post in hindi here.

READ LAST PAGE you will find ayurved use'like cure like method'

I can't send you email;bc you donot display here.Read bhavparkash also for modren ayurved.

DrManojVEDI 7 years ago
If you unable to open due to ads then send your gmail.click at least three time;close rest two windows.
DrManojVEDI 7 years ago
Cosmic weaver indeed a good discussion.

I do not agree with your understanding of spectrum of effect.There is a dichotomy in what you say.Perhaps because you are viewing things from homeopathic paradigm and restricted to it as exemplified by your repetitive use of 'proving'.

Your repeated emphasis on provings is based on your conceptual belief in like cures like.

If I am thirsty and drinking water alleviates it you can not reason that drinking water again or repeatedly would induce thirst. ...double minus do not become plus but minus doubled in real gross world...

You do not know at what point in spectrum (potency) does 'opposite balance' becomes' like cures like'.

Again coffee example is wrong whichever way you see.Since we are addicted to coffee causing nervous dependence on it , it temporarily relieves craving.Eventually it bankrupts your adrenal glands.

Further you say that as provings progress from real substance to potentized ones the provings are inverted.Again
Without reason.

You say repeatedly administering coffee potentized it.Thats true it magnifies the effect as effects are additive and do not cancel out as per homeopathic logic.However this potentiation is linearly increasing for gross matter and not inverted as in dilutions.

That's the mystery about homeopathy that across range properties invert in provings.
and we witness like cures like phenomenon. Do not extend this second potentized half to the grosser real first half either in effect or theory as it is contradictory.

That is my point that herbs and dilutions have inverted workings and mutually exclusive unless some theory joins them in the middle:)
[message edited by Teupne on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 13:50:44 UTC]
Teupne 7 years ago

Your link does mention that but no examples are cited.Whether it is a part of any ayurveda text or simply opinion piece.examples needed.

Dear cosmic weaver

As an extreme example homeopathy remedies can alleviate hunger simply by prescribing remedies that produce hunger.Thus no food production would be required.It is an extreme theoretical example.
[message edited by Teupne on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 15:14:54 UTC]
Teupne 7 years ago
If you know sanskrit then go for
Sushruta Samhita &Charaka Samhita
Read them carefully you get your all answers.

It is not my opinion ;
About example try to search what you use for snake bite;
Allopathy;homeopathy(not too sucess in snake bite );ayurvedic use same poison.poison for poison;if you live in india you know that;try to remember

Another example for skin disease ayurved use water of sulphur,alumina,
arsenic and Hg .some place in india naturally have it.You can see women in india still goning to these places.it is also like cure like.
Now don't say where they use all of this?my answer will be read above two samhita's metal section.(like cure like in nidansthanm.)
[message edited by DrManojVEDI on Wed, 09 Nov 2016 16:23:34 UTC]
DrManojVEDI 7 years ago

If Poison kills poison you conclude like cures like.Unbelievable.If one poison antidotes another it is a chemical phenomenon between two compounds and nowhere involves human body.

If sulphur springs heal skin diseases it is not like cures like .

The text references you mentioned are not with me so can't look up.
Regarding metal section or rasashashtra it also employs potentization but only through finer nano particles that are absorbed and act fast.

So still disagree with like cures like in ayurveda.
Teupne 7 years ago
Yes it is main problem with ayurvedic doctor thats why i tell how a ayurvedic doctor's/homeopath behaviour will be;if he just know somethig there;don't want to accept.(Read my post behaviour of doctors ;diff. Pathy;)

How can you don't have both books;you can't complete your degree without it.

In their 70+ most classical homeopath; no more classical please;
DrManojVEDI 7 years ago

I am not a doctor but an engineer with I believe a fine,discriminating mind.

I have an open mind.I am open to new concepts as my aim is to earn true knowledge.

I don't have those texts; if you share relevant examples from them it would help all who are following the discussion as the examples already given by you are not relevant I believe.

Like cures like might be employed in ayurveda but for very limited purposes.again I am just surmising :I do not know of it being used.
Teupne 7 years ago
In allopathy and ayurvedic

1.Digitalis in high doses causes arrhythimias, but this drug is used routinely in low doses to treat this condition
2.The stimulant amphetamine-based drug Ritalin is used to treat Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)
3.Small doses of allergens such as pollen are used to de-sensitise allergic patients
4.mostly in ayurvedic ;Alzheimer
5.mostly in auyrvedic;detoxification;how?read process of detoxifcation in ayurved; and used herbs property in bhavparkash.(it is very good book ;it is also translated in hindi)buy online.There is hundred of herbs in it.
DrManojVEDI 7 years ago

Post ReplyTo post a reply, you must first LOG ON or Register


Information given in this forum is given by way of exchange of views only, and those views are not necessarily those of ABC Homeopathy. It is not to be treated as a medical diagnosis or prescription, and should not be used as a substitute for a consultation with a qualified homeopath or physician. It is possible that advice given here may be dangerous, and you should make your own checks that it is safe. If symptoms persist, seek professional medical attention. Bear in mind that even minor symptoms can be a sign of a more serious underlying condition, and a timely diagnosis by your doctor could save your life.