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Question for Joe about Natrum Phos Page 2 of 2
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Joepathy follows the rules for Palliation - improvement followed by aggravation. Homoeopathy of course follows the opposite - aggravation followed by improvement.
I am only giving you my understanding from the homoeopathic perspective of course so keep that in mind.
If you are being cured, then old symptoms can resurface as part of that cure. This should mean that afterwards you will be better (and not need the medicine continuously). It is possible that you have only just got enough of those remedies to trigger the healing crisis. However the crisis should not be continuous, and it should result in better health for you.
On the other hand, palliation often seems quite positive in the beginning, although it comes without the initial worsening usually, which for homoeopaths is the sign that the remedy is curing.
Palliation must be maintained by constant redosing. After a period of time palliation will cease to be effective, as it has not cured the underlying cause, although as new medicines and higher doses or more frequent dosing is applied, the effect can be prolonged. This is exactly the same as in many other medical systems,orthodox and otherwise (allopathic, antipathic).
After some time, Palliation will become suppression. This means the energy that is creating those symptoms, continues to try to do so until they have been blocked for long enough. Then that energy will redirect to other weak spots - other symptoms will worsen, or new symptoms will appear. Since the vital energy is already attempting to keep your disease at the safest spot, it must now choose the next line of defence, which is often deeper inside, in a somewhat worse position (skin becomes a lung problem, URT problem becomes an emotional one etc).
So the important thing is to watch the direction that things move in. If more superficial symptoms become more serious ones, this is the wrong direction. If serious ones become more superficial ones this is the right direction. Cure always moves from within out, from more important locations to less important ones, REGARDLESS of the way in which any medicine is administered (nature's law of cure).
Again, from the homoeopathic perspective, if a medicine is creating a healing crisis, you would stop until it is over, since taking more will just intensify that.
I am only giving you my understanding from the homoeopathic perspective of course so keep that in mind.
If you are being cured, then old symptoms can resurface as part of that cure. This should mean that afterwards you will be better (and not need the medicine continuously). It is possible that you have only just got enough of those remedies to trigger the healing crisis. However the crisis should not be continuous, and it should result in better health for you.
On the other hand, palliation often seems quite positive in the beginning, although it comes without the initial worsening usually, which for homoeopaths is the sign that the remedy is curing.
Palliation must be maintained by constant redosing. After a period of time palliation will cease to be effective, as it has not cured the underlying cause, although as new medicines and higher doses or more frequent dosing is applied, the effect can be prolonged. This is exactly the same as in many other medical systems,orthodox and otherwise (allopathic, antipathic).
After some time, Palliation will become suppression. This means the energy that is creating those symptoms, continues to try to do so until they have been blocked for long enough. Then that energy will redirect to other weak spots - other symptoms will worsen, or new symptoms will appear. Since the vital energy is already attempting to keep your disease at the safest spot, it must now choose the next line of defence, which is often deeper inside, in a somewhat worse position (skin becomes a lung problem, URT problem becomes an emotional one etc).
So the important thing is to watch the direction that things move in. If more superficial symptoms become more serious ones, this is the wrong direction. If serious ones become more superficial ones this is the right direction. Cure always moves from within out, from more important locations to less important ones, REGARDLESS of the way in which any medicine is administered (nature's law of cure).
Again, from the homoeopathic perspective, if a medicine is creating a healing crisis, you would stop until it is over, since taking more will just intensify that.
♡ brisbanehomoeopath last decade
Thanks, David. I was going to take the second Arnica wet dose before I go to bed but I guess you are saying I should not. Or are you saying I should but without sucussing, so it would be the same potency. Nope.... now I remember that's not supposed to be good.
I've been thinking so much about if I have what it takes to give your classical homeopathy another serious try. There are several reasons why I'm nervous about it, other than my past experiences.
I have such a loaded 58 years of pathology, both physical and emotional, that it is extremely difficult for me to talk about it or even think about it. I actually have serious trouble with memory and the concept of time since two episodes of vascular collapse/anaphylaxis when I literally died with no pulse in the 1990s. When asked specifics about physical or emotional things that any homeopath would need answers to, I get very anxious and too many partial memories from all different times flood my mind so that everything feels garbled and is not what you want or need.
When I am flaring, which can often happen from anxiety, it is very difficult to even explain how I feel at that moment. During those times I can have challenging cognitive issues with the simplest things. One time I was holding up a fork and I knew what it was for but could not remember what it was called. Just thinking about that and other health issues has me headed towards an Aconite state.
To begin with a patient with so much pathology, do you need the whole history, or can we just focus on the present outer layer by outer layer as they are resolved? Can it be done in very small steps so I feel safe and all of the past does not shut me down?
How do you solve a case when the patient gets totally overwhelmed with even the simplest of questions because there is too much to process and her head and chest feels like she must do anything to stop the feeling or she will die?
~Tahbi
I've been thinking so much about if I have what it takes to give your classical homeopathy another serious try. There are several reasons why I'm nervous about it, other than my past experiences.
I have such a loaded 58 years of pathology, both physical and emotional, that it is extremely difficult for me to talk about it or even think about it. I actually have serious trouble with memory and the concept of time since two episodes of vascular collapse/anaphylaxis when I literally died with no pulse in the 1990s. When asked specifics about physical or emotional things that any homeopath would need answers to, I get very anxious and too many partial memories from all different times flood my mind so that everything feels garbled and is not what you want or need.
When I am flaring, which can often happen from anxiety, it is very difficult to even explain how I feel at that moment. During those times I can have challenging cognitive issues with the simplest things. One time I was holding up a fork and I knew what it was for but could not remember what it was called. Just thinking about that and other health issues has me headed towards an Aconite state.
To begin with a patient with so much pathology, do you need the whole history, or can we just focus on the present outer layer by outer layer as they are resolved? Can it be done in very small steps so I feel safe and all of the past does not shut me down?
How do you solve a case when the patient gets totally overwhelmed with even the simplest of questions because there is too much to process and her head and chest feels like she must do anything to stop the feeling or she will die?
~Tahbi
tahbi last decade
It seems to me that your immediate problem is your oncoming cold.
You may like to know that right now there is a virus that can be considered the father and mother of colds and I too caught it and suffered with it even though it migrated into my lungs and resulted in a cough when I could hear whistling sounds without a stethoscope when in bed. An antibiotic was obviously called for but I did not take it as I did not present a fever.
It took me about 10 days to get over this infection but others who took the antibiotic seemed to react with worse symptoms which were more long lasting than mine.
I also used steam during the most difficult period about 5 times daily and this helped to soften the phlegm which I coughed out.
You may like to know that right now there is a virus that can be considered the father and mother of colds and I too caught it and suffered with it even though it migrated into my lungs and resulted in a cough when I could hear whistling sounds without a stethoscope when in bed. An antibiotic was obviously called for but I did not take it as I did not present a fever.
It took me about 10 days to get over this infection but others who took the antibiotic seemed to react with worse symptoms which were more long lasting than mine.
I also used steam during the most difficult period about 5 times daily and this helped to soften the phlegm which I coughed out.
♡ Joe De Livera last decade
Hi Joe,
This feels more like an aggravation from the remedy. The bad virus I had 1 1/2 months ago I caught from my granddaughter. Because of my mast cell disease, I rarely catch normal things because my immune system is too defensive. I generally get very sick from the chemicals in my own body that are fighting off the bug rather than the bug itself.
Assuming it is an aggravation from the Aconite wet dose, which seemed to be working brilliantly, what would you recommend for tonight's dose?
Other than the very few allopathic medicines that I take for mastocytosis and hypothyroid, I almost never take other drugs like antibiotics. I'm extremely sensitive and usually react very badly to most drugs and substances that do not bother others.
I'm glad you are feeling better, Joe....
This feels more like an aggravation from the remedy. The bad virus I had 1 1/2 months ago I caught from my granddaughter. Because of my mast cell disease, I rarely catch normal things because my immune system is too defensive. I generally get very sick from the chemicals in my own body that are fighting off the bug rather than the bug itself.
Assuming it is an aggravation from the Aconite wet dose, which seemed to be working brilliantly, what would you recommend for tonight's dose?
Other than the very few allopathic medicines that I take for mastocytosis and hypothyroid, I almost never take other drugs like antibiotics. I'm extremely sensitive and usually react very badly to most drugs and substances that do not bother others.
I'm glad you are feeling better, Joe....
tahbi last decade
Palliation would require that you repeat the dose to maintain the suppressive effect.
Homoeopathically you are simply trying to instigate a reaction, and once that has happened you allow it to go as far as it can on its own without adding fuel to the fire so to speak.
How you are approaching your treatment would determine what you do when something happens.
My approach is not like some of the other practitioners you will have seen. The garbled responses, the 'nonsense', is far more valuable than the rational ordered stuff. The state, the voice of the remedy, speaks through all of that, if you have an ear to hear it.
You can do this any way you want. It is up to you. I will simply try to understand your state - whether the window we use is a current problem or a past one is up to you. Really, it is all one problem anyway, so either way is fine (although both windows give us a more complete view).
I only ask you to describe your experience. The only answers you need to give are descriptions. The less rational the better :)
Homoeopathically you are simply trying to instigate a reaction, and once that has happened you allow it to go as far as it can on its own without adding fuel to the fire so to speak.
How you are approaching your treatment would determine what you do when something happens.
My approach is not like some of the other practitioners you will have seen. The garbled responses, the 'nonsense', is far more valuable than the rational ordered stuff. The state, the voice of the remedy, speaks through all of that, if you have an ear to hear it.
You can do this any way you want. It is up to you. I will simply try to understand your state - whether the window we use is a current problem or a past one is up to you. Really, it is all one problem anyway, so either way is fine (although both windows give us a more complete view).
I only ask you to describe your experience. The only answers you need to give are descriptions. The less rational the better :)
♡ brisbanehomoeopath last decade
Oh I also think you should see this treatment through until it is clear that you are feeling better or that things are getting worse, before changing prescribing styles again. It is only fair to you and to Joe.
However, do whatever you think is best for yourself.
However, do whatever you think is best for yourself.
♡ brisbanehomoeopath last decade
Hi David,
I'm pretty sure the cold symptoms are an aggravation. I actually felt much better until I just began typing this and began to sneeze again. I'll know more tomorrow morning. I don't really comprehend how the Arnica is just palliation because from the beginning of the treatment I felt much better emotionally yet various aches and pains similar to chronic issues would appear and disappear. This morning, on waking and until the dose of Arnica was the first real depression I've felt since the beginning of this Joepathy. What a pleasant surprise to see the aches, pains, and depression come and go so swiftly. It's usually not like that at all. I actually think the most challenging moments since I began the treatment were when I was contemplating filling out the homeopathy questionaire a short while ago. The all too common fight or flight feeling hit bigtime, and when I tried to think of how I would answer the questions my mind was all noise and ghosts from the past, with nothing feeling safe.
I think the only way to do this would be for you to ask a few absolutely specific questions at a time so I could hopefully focus on only those particulars. And because my many issues have been ongoing daily (sometimes minute to minute) change of symptoms and roller-coaster my whole life, it would be best if you could be very specific with 'when'. Hopefully that could limit the flooding of broken bits of memories and overwhelming emotion which could make me unable to answer at all..
Are you sure you are up for this?
Out of all of my issues the one that is screaming at me the most lately is the osteoporosis. I am a very independent woman who has few friends and my family is not there for me. Even when I've been very ill it's been mostly alone with my pets. The thought of breaking a hip or my spine is an awful one. I can't be away from my pets and certainly it would be hell stuck in an allopathic hospital. The things that have happened to me by doctors have caused great trauma. I would rather die than end up stuck in a hospital or nursing home away from my only safety with my cats and dog.
Have you ever truly stopped the osteoporosis process in a patient? This is secondary to mastocytosis in addition to me being post menopausal.
Thanks....
I'm pretty sure the cold symptoms are an aggravation. I actually felt much better until I just began typing this and began to sneeze again. I'll know more tomorrow morning. I don't really comprehend how the Arnica is just palliation because from the beginning of the treatment I felt much better emotionally yet various aches and pains similar to chronic issues would appear and disappear. This morning, on waking and until the dose of Arnica was the first real depression I've felt since the beginning of this Joepathy. What a pleasant surprise to see the aches, pains, and depression come and go so swiftly. It's usually not like that at all. I actually think the most challenging moments since I began the treatment were when I was contemplating filling out the homeopathy questionaire a short while ago. The all too common fight or flight feeling hit bigtime, and when I tried to think of how I would answer the questions my mind was all noise and ghosts from the past, with nothing feeling safe.
I think the only way to do this would be for you to ask a few absolutely specific questions at a time so I could hopefully focus on only those particulars. And because my many issues have been ongoing daily (sometimes minute to minute) change of symptoms and roller-coaster my whole life, it would be best if you could be very specific with 'when'. Hopefully that could limit the flooding of broken bits of memories and overwhelming emotion which could make me unable to answer at all..
Are you sure you are up for this?
Out of all of my issues the one that is screaming at me the most lately is the osteoporosis. I am a very independent woman who has few friends and my family is not there for me. Even when I've been very ill it's been mostly alone with my pets. The thought of breaking a hip or my spine is an awful one. I can't be away from my pets and certainly it would be hell stuck in an allopathic hospital. The things that have happened to me by doctors have caused great trauma. I would rather die than end up stuck in a hospital or nursing home away from my only safety with my cats and dog.
Have you ever truly stopped the osteoporosis process in a patient? This is secondary to mastocytosis in addition to me being post menopausal.
Thanks....
tahbi last decade
Thanks for your last short post, David.
Though I'm still confused as to how to proceed with Joe's treatment. I'm having another wave of mild cold symptoms.
Though I'm still confused as to how to proceed with Joe's treatment. I'm having another wave of mild cold symptoms.
tahbi last decade
It is possible that Arnica is a good remedy for you. There is no way to judge that until we see how the whole case changes. While Joe's method generally produces palliation, at times some people are given Arnica which acts homoeopathically.
Palliation can produce remarkable improvement for a short while. Sometimes it can look almost miraculous.
The real test of treatment is firstly its ability to keep you well without needing constant reapplication. This can only be seen over time, and by stopping the medicine. If everything comes flooding back in a very short while (hours or days) then you have most likely been palliating your symptoms.
The second real test of treatment is its ability to change you across all levles, physical, emotional, mental. Any treatment that only affects one small area, is palliative. Curative remedies create changes across the board.
So I think that to be sure what Arnica is doing, you will need to see how things go. Right now it is difficult to know exactly what it is happening. Over a few more days, or weeks, it will become more clear.
Palliation can produce remarkable improvement for a short while. Sometimes it can look almost miraculous.
The real test of treatment is firstly its ability to keep you well without needing constant reapplication. This can only be seen over time, and by stopping the medicine. If everything comes flooding back in a very short while (hours or days) then you have most likely been palliating your symptoms.
The second real test of treatment is its ability to change you across all levles, physical, emotional, mental. Any treatment that only affects one small area, is palliative. Curative remedies create changes across the board.
So I think that to be sure what Arnica is doing, you will need to see how things go. Right now it is difficult to know exactly what it is happening. Over a few more days, or weeks, it will become more clear.
♡ brisbanehomoeopath last decade
That helps. Thank you.
I will not take the bedtime dose tonight and will see how I feel in the morning.
I'm realistic enough to know that Arnica is probably not the right remedy to change me across the board. Wouldn't that be beyond miracles!!! And because I had just begun the extremely strict diet a short while before my first Joepathy dose, I really can't tell what's what. I'm just happy that I'm as good as I am right now. It's been a very tough, long road for many, many years..... I've learned lots....
I will not take the bedtime dose tonight and will see how I feel in the morning.
I'm realistic enough to know that Arnica is probably not the right remedy to change me across the board. Wouldn't that be beyond miracles!!! And because I had just begun the extremely strict diet a short while before my first Joepathy dose, I really can't tell what's what. I'm just happy that I'm as good as I am right now. It's been a very tough, long road for many, many years..... I've learned lots....
tahbi last decade
Hi Joe and David,
After staying up most of the night reading, I awoke after few hours of deep sleep to bright blue skies and no obvious cold symptoms.... Well, maybe a very tiny feeling of congestion in my upper chest and throat from the gerd that is usually worse first thing in the morning. I also felt a few moments of deep depression the moment I woke up but that is so slight compared to the six years from menopause hitting to the discovery and daily use of magnesium oil.
Joe, I will continue to take Nat Phos 6x after meals but am puzzled about the Arnica and sucussions to do if I have been experiencing mild aggravations. I plan to take a good hike today and am sure the sunshine will feed me.
Thanks.... Tahbi
After staying up most of the night reading, I awoke after few hours of deep sleep to bright blue skies and no obvious cold symptoms.... Well, maybe a very tiny feeling of congestion in my upper chest and throat from the gerd that is usually worse first thing in the morning. I also felt a few moments of deep depression the moment I woke up but that is so slight compared to the six years from menopause hitting to the discovery and daily use of magnesium oil.
Joe, I will continue to take Nat Phos 6x after meals but am puzzled about the Arnica and sucussions to do if I have been experiencing mild aggravations. I plan to take a good hike today and am sure the sunshine will feed me.
Thanks.... Tahbi
tahbi last decade
To Tahbi
It is important that you make up your mind as to whose therapy you wish to use.
It just would not do to use my Joepathy and David's Classical Homeopathy.
I have proved that my therapy has invariably helped patients towards a cure and if you still wish to use it you will have to make up your mind.
Since you seem to have some reservations about the reason why I often prescribe Arnica I would suggest you visit my Website below and read the many cases I have listed under
'Arnica the Miracle Remedy' as it may open your eyes to the reason why I do so to help my patients who have invariably responded positively.
www.joedelivera.com
It is important that you make up your mind as to whose therapy you wish to use.
It just would not do to use my Joepathy and David's Classical Homeopathy.
I have proved that my therapy has invariably helped patients towards a cure and if you still wish to use it you will have to make up your mind.
Since you seem to have some reservations about the reason why I often prescribe Arnica I would suggest you visit my Website below and read the many cases I have listed under
'Arnica the Miracle Remedy' as it may open your eyes to the reason why I do so to help my patients who have invariably responded positively.
www.joedelivera.com
♡ Joe De Livera last decade
Hi Joe,
I have certainly seen some progress with your Joepathy but the reality is that I have at least 58 years of pathology that is very complex and serious. In addition, I feel I must not go off of my few meds and several supplements at this time.... of course my goal is to not need them in order to be physically stable.
I do feel that I want to continue the Arnica and Nat Phos, but the Nat Phos seems to be at a standstill with the reflux. The reflux and asthma, although better than when I began your treatment, is not really improving now. I think the Arnica could continue to do more good with proper sucussing and good guidance but think that my case is probably quite overwhelming for you. I don't feel any obvious help from the Arnica for healing my esophagus but I do feel it is beginning the process of cure for broader physical and emotional issues... maybe/hopefully the very outer layer of my gigantic onion.
I am very thankful to you and have utmost respect for you and your Joepathy. I'm just very afraid that my complex issues and history are too much for your method. I have spent my life trying very hard to emotionally suppress my many and changing issues/symptoms when they come up because I can't and don't want to deal with them. There is huge fear around this. It's like a caged animal who is afraid to leave that prison because he is more afraid of what will happen if he does. Most times I've tried to heal with allopathy, naturapathy, homeopathy, acupuncture... my high hopes have been deflated too often. I'm really running out of time if I want to at least get the osteoporosis and emotional history cured, rather than stuffed deeper and deeper as I've spent my life doing so to desperately grab calm and peace when I can. I'm actually terrified to do this... but it feels like my last chance to save my life.
I hope you understand....
My best to you, Joe... Tahbi
I have certainly seen some progress with your Joepathy but the reality is that I have at least 58 years of pathology that is very complex and serious. In addition, I feel I must not go off of my few meds and several supplements at this time.... of course my goal is to not need them in order to be physically stable.
I do feel that I want to continue the Arnica and Nat Phos, but the Nat Phos seems to be at a standstill with the reflux. The reflux and asthma, although better than when I began your treatment, is not really improving now. I think the Arnica could continue to do more good with proper sucussing and good guidance but think that my case is probably quite overwhelming for you. I don't feel any obvious help from the Arnica for healing my esophagus but I do feel it is beginning the process of cure for broader physical and emotional issues... maybe/hopefully the very outer layer of my gigantic onion.
I am very thankful to you and have utmost respect for you and your Joepathy. I'm just very afraid that my complex issues and history are too much for your method. I have spent my life trying very hard to emotionally suppress my many and changing issues/symptoms when they come up because I can't and don't want to deal with them. There is huge fear around this. It's like a caged animal who is afraid to leave that prison because he is more afraid of what will happen if he does. Most times I've tried to heal with allopathy, naturapathy, homeopathy, acupuncture... my high hopes have been deflated too often. I'm really running out of time if I want to at least get the osteoporosis and emotional history cured, rather than stuffed deeper and deeper as I've spent my life doing so to desperately grab calm and peace when I can. I'm actually terrified to do this... but it feels like my last chance to save my life.
I hope you understand....
My best to you, Joe... Tahbi
tahbi last decade
So Tahbi how did you want to move forward from here? Are you still wanting to see what else the Arnica will do?
One of the things that will always reveal the true value of a remedy, is moving up to the next potency step. As a remedy is increased in potency, it must be very precise for the patient to have any effect. A partially correct medicine will become less effective as you move upwards.
One of the things that will always reveal the true value of a remedy, is moving up to the next potency step. As a remedy is increased in potency, it must be very precise for the patient to have any effect. A partially correct medicine will become less effective as you move upwards.
♡ brisbanehomoeopath last decade
Hi David,
First of all, should I start a new discussion heading with a link to this one?
I want to proceed with your classical homeopathy. I do happen to have Arnica 200C but would need detailed dosing instructions if different from Joe's.
Wow... I just looked at the list of symptoms for Arnica and there are several that fit. One that really stood out that I have not yet mentioned is that I am quite hard of hearing. It began about 15 years ago I think. The tinnitus was unbearable for years. Now that the hearing loss is quite severe the tinnitus does not usually bother me. My hearing always gets much worse with eating. There may be a small genetic piece to it from my fathers sideas well as the fact that I've had fevers over 106 degrees at least three times in my life. As an infant I was hospitalized for possible mumps with a super high fever. I was hospitalized at the age of 19 with acute tonsillitis and sky high fever, and I had pneumonia several times with the very high fever. There were more but I can't remember. Oh, chicken pox.
The sun turned to heavy clouds but I was able to take a long mountain hike with my dog and friend anyway. It was nice not to worry as much about the lyme/deer ticks up there because it's a serious problem in the valley where I live. I did take a dose of Arnica 30C with 6 sucussions before I left. It was only towards the end of my hike that I began with the coughing again. I'm still coughing on and off now and my throat and top of chest feel tight.
Thanks, David
First of all, should I start a new discussion heading with a link to this one?
I want to proceed with your classical homeopathy. I do happen to have Arnica 200C but would need detailed dosing instructions if different from Joe's.
Wow... I just looked at the list of symptoms for Arnica and there are several that fit. One that really stood out that I have not yet mentioned is that I am quite hard of hearing. It began about 15 years ago I think. The tinnitus was unbearable for years. Now that the hearing loss is quite severe the tinnitus does not usually bother me. My hearing always gets much worse with eating. There may be a small genetic piece to it from my fathers sideas well as the fact that I've had fevers over 106 degrees at least three times in my life. As an infant I was hospitalized for possible mumps with a super high fever. I was hospitalized at the age of 19 with acute tonsillitis and sky high fever, and I had pneumonia several times with the very high fever. There were more but I can't remember. Oh, chicken pox.
The sun turned to heavy clouds but I was able to take a long mountain hike with my dog and friend anyway. It was nice not to worry as much about the lyme/deer ticks up there because it's a serious problem in the valley where I live. I did take a dose of Arnica 30C with 6 sucussions before I left. It was only towards the end of my hike that I began with the coughing again. I'm still coughing on and off now and my throat and top of chest feel tight.
Thanks, David
tahbi last decade
Well I would suggest starting a new thread. What we can do is gather and analyze information, while you continue to explore the usefulness of the Arnica.
♡ brisbanehomoeopath last decade
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