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Bloated Abdomen

I am suffering from fibromyalgia since last 2.5 years. First 6 months were very difficult as it took some time to diagnosis and settle with APPROPRIATE medicines but letter on my doctor helped me a Lot and I took a lot of education on it and learned how to control it. Life was smooth with muscle relaxants twice a day and anti-depressants also twice a day along with proper sleep, food, exercise and most important stress management.

However I was attached with severe chest pain 2 month back and was not getting controlled even after increasing the dosage of the regular medicines and pain killers. My doctor then suggested Gabaneuron. Things started improving and I slowly started cutting down the medicines and almost after 6 weeks was almost back to normal but with one major issue and that is BLOATED ABDOMEN. No matter whatever I try my stomach is always bloated especially after eating something though in very small quantity and it increased my size by 2 nos now.

I thought that it might be side effect of Gabaneuron and will be ok in some days but unfortunately my BP went down suddenly and I gain got the fibromyalgia attack. I have always been having problem with neck and back and morning stiffness. Now I am back to square one with all medicines with increased dosage. But now I am extremely worried about BLOATED ABDOMEN which has become worst now. I have also been suffering from severe constipation since last 2 years now

I wish to switch over to homeopathy medicines completely but as of now I wish to concentrate on BLOATED ABDOMEN while trying to reduce other medicines slowly and once I am back to normal I will then start with complete homeopathy treatment for fibromyalgia.

I learnt about Lycopodium 30. Will it help? Please suggest me with appropriate homeopathy medicine for BLOATED ABDOMEN
 
  medhelpseeker on 2012-04-08
This is just a forum. Assume posts are not from medical professionals.
This forum appreciate your thought of getting treatment thru Homeopathy medicines.

The following additional information is required to help you. Therefore, please do the best you can in providing a detailed and accurate data.

1) State your Age -Sex -Height-Weight-Job-Location?
2) Explain in details the chief complaints?
3) What is the duration of illness?
4) If you have Thyroid functioning complications, please explain?
5) If you have blood sugar, do mention the clinical details?
6) Do you have digestion problem? Explain in details.
7) Do you face any problem in bowl movement? Any constipation symptoms?
8) Do you feel thirsty? How many glasses of water you drink every day?
9) Do you feel good in warm or cold or humid climate? Which climate aggravates your problem?
10) Do you have any stress? Explain in details.
11) Do you get normal sound sleep?
12) Explain in detail about your mood?
13) Any problem with you periods? (For females)
- Are the periods early, regular or late in general? How long do they last?
- Do you suffer from any kind of physical or mental discomfort before, during or after the periods?
- Is the flow scanty, normal or excessive?
- Is the blood thick bright red or pale watery?
- Do you notice any clots in the flow?
14) Any past health history for which you would like to share the information?
15) List all the medicine used / using for past / present health complaints?
16) Do you exercise daily? Or any other physical activity.
17) What is your Cholesterol level?
18) What do you crave for in food items and what are your aversions?
19) How is your hunger: Less, Normal or Excessive?
20) Is your sweat normal or less or more? Where does it sweat more: Head, Trunk or Limbs?
21) How much is your present blood pressure?
22) Please give details about your food intake (breakfast-lunch-dinner)?

Regards,
Nikkie.
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
Thank a lot for showing interest in my problem

I look forward to getting appropriate advice from you

I have tried my best to give you maximum details.

1) State your Age -Sex -Height-Weight-Job-Location?
38 years, Female, 4 feet 10 inches, 47 kgs, free-lancer , India
2) Explain in details the chief complaints?
My problem started 2.6 years back and initially it was limited only with back pain but was very very severe . Later on we tried a lot of medicines and almost after 6 months we were sure that the problem was related to Fibromyalgia I learnt a lot on this topic and my family also supported me. I used to have some problem or the other. Chief complaints are:
Muscular Pain:
Mostly in back and neck
Morning stiffness
Either back or neck has been my major complain. When stiffness is in back I am almost normal after abour 15-20 min of waking in morning and especially after exercise. But when problem is with neck it slowly goes upto head and I have severe headache with vomiting and cannot be controlled by any medicines sometimes not even with injectables. I have to make sure for next few days that I don’t sleep more than 4-5 hours else the headache continues
Nature of my work is on computers. I have to constantly work on computers for 6-8 hrs everyday however I work only when my health permits. Hence
Fatigue
I cannot do any physical work for a long time as I get very tired and if I force myself I again face breakdown and have to increase dosage
Constipation
Constipation was not a problem at all for initial 6 months but after that from last 2 years I am facing sever severe problem of constipation. I have tried all medicines allopath , homeopathy and everything else like drinking a lot of water taking high fibre food etc etc but only aurvedic medicine with strong dosage has helped
Sleeping Problems
I have been facing sleeping disorder since more than 5+ years. But since last 2.5 years it is not in a particular pattern. Sometime for some time I go to sleep only with triptomer and flexabenz at bedtime but most of the time I have to take alprex. At times the problem is under control with routine is regular but again become bad and have to take calmpose with alprax. When my problem becomes worst even with calmpose I take Alpha TS 25 drops thrice a day and it brings back me to normal. For me talking alpres is almost normal now
Good time
However there was a period of almost 8 months where I was living v normal life. There were just two problems
1) Constipation ( which was taken care by aurvedic medicines)
2) Sleeping problem ( which was take care by alprex only)
Other than that I used to take triptomer and flexabenz regularly
Bloated Abdomen
But other than that I was feeling very normal… used to do physical work , work on computers for 4 hrs at a stretch and also travel a lot for my work but I was absolutely fine. But suddenly one day when I was too much tired I faced an attack and this time it was chest pain which was not coming in control and I had to take steroids few days to get back to normal. Things were improving but again I faced similar attach after talking on phone for 1.5 hrs at a stretch and my doctor then prescribed Gabaneuron. Things were then in control after few days. I never used to take too much of physical stress. But the problem of BLOATED ABDOMEN started
Again I got attack before few days due to pain in stomach/abdomen due to periods and I have to take Gabaneuron again. I am really scared now as my stomach/abdomen is so much bloated that I feel embarrassed going in public
3) What is the duration of illness?
2.5 years
4) If you have Thyroid functioning complications, please explain?
No.. I have got all test done and I do not have thyroid
5) If you have blood sugar, do mention the clinical details?
No have got it caeck regularly
6) Do you have digestion problem? Explain in details. –
I am facing problem of severe constipation since last 2 years
7) Do you face any problem in bowl movement? Any constipation symptoms?
Initially when my problem started I used to face problem with bowl movement along with back pain. But later on this symptom was not very regular. When I get tired I face problem of back pain and with that I face bowl movement also. I take one crosin and things become alright. Constipation has been a severe problem for last 2 years
8) Do you feel thirsty? How many glasses of water you drink every day?
Yes some time I feel very thirsty. Mouth dryness is also common problem now. Especially at night when I cannot fall sleep I feel very thirsty. I take almost 1-2 litres of water everyday
9) Do you feel good in warm or cold or humid climate? Which climate aggravates your problem?
My pain is good in warm climate but at the same time I cannot stand heat. I have not been able to observe completely but I think cold climate does not suit me much. Infact my pain I have to on and off take warmth through hot water bag in the region which is paining and I get relief
10) Do you have any stress? Explain in details.
Not having satisfying career and a life partner was creating a lot of stress. I was facing problems with sleep since a long time and I faced a sudden setback once in professional life and once in personal life which resulted into emotional trauma. I thought I was very strong only before I got attack of muscular pain. Due to health I do not have a stable career and have not been able to marry also. This brings a lot of insecurities and loneliness
11) Do you get normal sound sleep?
I have always been facing problem in sleeping from a long time especially since last 5+ years. Mostly I have to take alprax for sleeping. But once I sleep I have sound sleep and I make sure I get enough sleep except when sleeping is creating problems (morning stiffness which is chief complaints and at that time keeping awake is major challange)
12) Explain in detail about your mood?
I am sensitive fearless and straightforward person having good personality ( I get this feedback from others). I am not moody and have a compromising nature. But am also aggressive at times
13) Any problem with you periods? (For females)
- Are the periods early, regular or late in general? How long do they last?
Yes I am getting regular periods and it last for about 3 days
- Do you suffer from any kind of physical or mental discomfort before, during or after the periods?
No I have not been facing such problems accept for very recent i.e. last 2 cycles I feel extremely tired with body pain 2 days before periods and have severe abdominal/stomach pain also. Infact it seems that the last attack was due to periods only
- Is the flow scanty, normal or excessive?
Flow has been normal but I had face a excessive flow problem one year back and was on medication by gynecologist for one month and things were normal after that
- Is the blood thick bright red or pale watery?
It is bright red but not sure of think or thin
- Do you notice any clots in the flow?
Yes … I was having excessive bleeding problem and at that time there used to be clots but it was ok after the treatment. I still notich small clots sometimes only
14) Any past health history for which you would like to share the information?
Insomia / Sleeping disorder
Acidity ( very sever and sensitive… a little change in eating cycle , climate, sleep , exposure to sunlight results in acidity followed by headache).
I had severe problem of migrane 15 years back but is almost cured now
I have faced Urinary tract infection twice in last 3 years time and was cured with medicine
Allergy. I am allergic to sour food and cannot take yogurt or fruits like orange and magoes. Lemon is a complete no.
15) List all the medicine used / using for past / present health complaints?
I have been taking anti depressants, muscle relaxants and painkillers. Depending on the symptoms I have been taking different medicines and also had to take steroids once
Anti depressents ( Depsonil/Triptomer/Dulane)
Muscle Relaxant ( Fmexabenz)
Painkiller (Crosin, Ibugesic, Carisoma compound, Dolonex DT, Ramset(tramadol))
Medicines for sleeping (Alprax, Calmpose)
However the most common drug that I have been taking for more than 1 year now is triptomer and flexaben. Health was good for a long time and hence never took any pain killer. It is only recently I have started facing problems again and taking Gabaneuron, Carisoma compound (Pain killer) along with triptomer and flexabenz
16) Do you exercise daily? Or any other physical activity.
My nature of work is with computers sitting the entire day. But I exercise atkeast 5 times a week with Yoga and stretching exercise (appr 40 min) and walk 1.5-2 kms i.e 15-20 min again atleast 5 times a week
17) What is your Cholesterol level?
Normal
18) What do you crave for in food items and what are your aversions?
In general I do not crave for food much and also cannot say anything in specific about aversions except for some of the cooked vegetables (Indian food) especially in summer. I had faced weight gain problem before one year and since then do not take food which increased weight. So sometime I crave for sweets. I am again facing the same problem since last 2-3 moths.
19) How is your hunger: Less, Normal or Excessive?
It changes with climate. It is less in summer and excessive in winter. Especially with aurvedic laxative I face hunger in winters. My diet is very less but cannot stand hunger. I have to have something immediately else I have nausea like sensations and sometime also end up with severe headache
20) Is your sweat normal or less or more? Where does it sweat more: Head, Trunk or Limbs?
I used to sweat very less before 3 years but now I can say it is normal. I sweat while exercising in summers and it is mainly in head area
21) How much is your present blood pressure?
70/110
22) Please give details about your food intake (breakfast-lunch-dinner)?
My routine food habits is as follows
½ cup tea ( small size in morning as soon as I wake up as I am addicted to tea)
Breakfast: Cornflakes with milk
Lunch: Indian Lunch with lots of green salads and papaya
½ cup of tea one hour after lunch
Evening: fruits mainly one apple
Dinner: Good healthy Indian food (roti, sabji). Do take some fast food only one or two meals per week
I do not smoke or drink and I am strict vegetarian. I do not take drink coffee. I drink very less cold drinks maybe once or twice in a month
Information about medicines

*Triptomer (Amitriptyline)
*Flexabenz (Cyclobenzaprine)
*Alprax (Alprazolam)
*Calmpose(Diazepam)
*GabaNeuron(gabapenintin)
*Carisoma compound(Carisoprodol-Paracetamol)

I would like to switchover to homeopathy completely but please help me to get rid of Bloated Abdomen as the problem is increasing day by day

Please let me know if you need any more information

Thanking you in advance
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Thanks for the update.

'½ cup tea ( small size in morning as soon as I wake up as I am addicted to tea)'

..Instead Boil glass of water with fresh ginger. To this add Honey and Fresh lime juice (as per your taste), now this is your early morning drink :), now you had a replacement for tea. About allopathic list, you can omit all in one shot. Never go to sleep by taking sleeping pill, it has lot of side effects.

Important! hope you are not sensitivity to Homeopathy medicines ?

Please get hold of following medicine in liquid dilution:

1)Arnica 30.
2)Lycopodium 30.

Doses :
1) Dose of Arnica, Early morning empty stomach (6:00 Am).
2) Dose of Lycopodium, Afternoon (12:00 Pm).
3) Dose of Arnica , Evening (6:00 Pm).
4) Dose of Lycopodium, before going to bed.

Repeat for seven days.

One dose means.
The medicine is in liquid dilution form. Add 3-4 drops of medicine in some half cup (Approx. 3 sip) water and stir with spoon. Sip up the content .

Please follow homeopathy restrictions like no coffee, no raw onion/garlic, and no strong perfumes, don't eat or drink anything within 45 minutes before or after taking medicine.

Please update.

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie.
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
Thanks a lot for helping me

You have suggested me to omit allopathy all in one shot which seems to be difficult. Currently even if I forget one dose I have to pay for now less than 8 days. Can I slowly reduce allopathy while starting with homeopathy medicines suggested by you

Is this remedy for Bloated abdomen or all fibromyligia symptoms

Awaiting your reply. In the meantime I have already got the medicines suggested by you and will start from today itself

Thanks for all your help
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Thanks for the update. The doses should take care of all the listed problems (let us wait and watch how your system accepts it). Ok ! regarding allopathic medicines you can go slow. I dont know much about the listed allopathic medicines. Please educate me regarding it use in your allopathy treatment :).

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie.
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
I am extremely thankful for your response and helo

As you must aware that main cause of Fibromyligia is not known but it is found that it is caused by any or all of these reason: Sleeping disorders /Depression/Emotional Trauma/Stress. Researchers have found elevated levels of a nerve chemical signal, called substance P, and nerve growth factor in the spinal fluid of fibromyalgia patients. Levels of the brain chemical serotonin are also relatively low in patients with fibromyalgia. The primary treatment goals should include raise serotonin levels, improve sleep quality, and assure adequate magnesium levels.

Medicines maily includes tricyclic antidepressants, muscle relaxants and pain killer.

Tricyclic antidepressants works by interfering with nerve transmitter chemical in the brain called serotonin.
Muscle relaxants help to ease tense muscles and reduce muscle spasms, thereby providing relief to many fibromyalgia patients.

These medicines take some time to give complete effect and till than pain killers are used to relieve patients from pain otherwise severe pain does not only make life of patients difficult but also causes depression which further increases the problem

It is advised that one should not withdraw the antidepressant suddenly as it has sever withdrawal symptoms and can even make one’s situation worse

Thanks for you kind help, I will keep you posted on the developments.
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Thank you very much :).

Now, explain any instance/s where you had forgotten to take a dose and you found drastic fluctuation of your health symptoms.

Say for example you forgot to take Triptomer what will be the consiquence for that day.....

*Triptomer (Amitriptyline)
*Flexabenz (Cyclobenzaprine)
*Alprax (Alprazolam)
*Calmpose(Diazepam)
*GabaNeuron(gabapenintin)
*Carisoma compound(Carisoprodol-Paracetamol)

Please do update after taking the doses (Homeopathy).

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
I can site one example. As I told my problem was not coming under control so doctor prescribed me Gabaneuron 100 mg with painkillers three times a day…I slowly reduced pain killers to 2 times a day and then to once a day but once I forgot Gabaneuron does and that took me back to square one and even three pain killers per day was not working.

I will update you after taking homeopathy medicines as suggested by you

Thanks
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Hello Nikkie

Thanks for your kind help
I started medicines form 11th April 2012 and thought of updating you with the current status

I followed the instructions suggested by you.

I tried to have glass of boiled water with fresh ginger, honey and fresh lime but it resulted in severe headache as I am severely addicted to tea. Also I am allergic to Lime.
I took following medicines as per the dosage and timing suggest by you

1)Arnica 30.
2)Lycopodium 30.

As already discussed earlier I am still taking the allopathic medicines.

I am taking aurvedic laxatives for constipation

Current status is
1) I am taking triptomer, flexabenz and gabaneuron but I am still not feeling normal. I am also taking pain killer in morning and evening but still I am not able to take physical stress. I cannot work on computers for more than 2 hrs. Also am not able to walk more than 1 km as I get too tired resulting into complete breakdown
2) There is no change in flatulence with bloating of abdomen especially after eating
3) I am facing sever stiffness in back in morning. I cannot sleep for more than 5-6 hrs as I face severe stiffness to the extent that I getup in morning with great difficulty

Kindly let me know if I need to make any changes in dosage of homeopathic medicines suggested by you

Thanks in advance
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Thanks for the update. For time being hold on with Arnica and Lycopodium.

Tips to be followed strictly:

1. Eat fruits like apple, watermelon and banana
2. Avoid fried food, pickle, hot and spicy food
3. Take your meals on time
4. Drink plenty of water
5. Don’t skip your meals.
6. Avoid garlic, onion, pepper, radish and cabbage
7. Eat green and leafy vegetables
8. Take light meals that make it easy for digestive system to quickly digest the food you eat.
9. spicy, salty and acidic should be avoided.
10.Smoking and alcohol consumption must be stopped.
11) Strictly drink water 1 hr before or after having your food.
12) You have to avoid chilled water,cold drinks, preserved food stuff etc.

Please get hold of following medicine in liquid dilution:

1) Carbo Veg 30.

Doses :
1) Dose of Carbo. Veg. Early morning empty stomach (6:00 Am).
2) Dose of Carbo. Veg., Afternoon (12:00 Pm).
3) Dose of Carbo. Veg., in the evening (6:00 pm).

Repeat for five days.

>> Nat. Sulph. 30 (liquid dilution) keep it in stock.

Any queries do let me know.

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie.
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
Thanks a lot for the reply

It will not be possible for me to get Carbo Veg 30 in liquid dilution immediately but I have tablets(small round ones) of Carbo Veg 30. Can I take the tablets

Awaiting your reply
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Carbo. Veg 30 in liquid dilution is required. Did you took carbo veg before ?

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie.
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
No.. I never took Carbo Veg earlier. I had learned about it through remidy finder in this site and so bought it once but never used it. It is just a coincidence

I will try to get it in liquid dilution soon

Thanks
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Ok ! Make sure you get carbo. veg in liquid dilution.

Please clarify the following (from your previous mail)if you missed something to update me:

'I have tried all medicines allopath , homeopathy and everything else like drinking a lot of water taking high fibre food etc etc.........'

Which Homeopathy medicines you tried please mention name and potency (if you remember ?

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie.
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
Hello!

I tried Y-LAX(tablets) and it was effective for 2-3 days only. I also tried to increase number tablets and also taking with warm water but it used to be effective only for 2-3 days max. But I tried this almost 1.5 yrs back.
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Thanks for the update. Hope you had started withe the doses as mentined in my post.
It is very important to have water one hour before or after the meal (It is ok to have small sip in case food gets choked in throat).


Tip:
1) Mix the following in ratio 1:1 (Carom seeds (ajwain) + Fennel Seeds (Saunf). You can have this after having your meal.

>>Your previous post says you are allergic to lime or lime juice' Please, explain the aggrevation in detail?


Keep me updated.

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie.
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
Yes I am allergic to lime and also any sour things like oranges and sometimes even tomatoes. If I take sour things I suffer from cold. Sometimes I also face problem in breathing or I notice something like urticaria on my skin.

I am in a very critical situation now. I am unable to do any physical work. I had to increase doses of allopathy medicines though things are still not under control

Is it advisable to take any homeopathy medicine in such a situation?

You had asked me one question about bowel movement earlier. I am facing that problem now. If I take any type of physical stress I get extremely tired , suffer from back and neck pain and also experience bowel movements.

Updates on your tips
1. Eat fruits like apple, watermelon and banana – I eat apple and papaya everyday
2. Avoid fried food, pickle, hot and spicy food – I have been strictly following this since a long time now
3. Take your meals on time – I am very regular
4. Drink plenty of water – Do try my best but sometimes I miss
5. Don’t skip your meals. – I cannot even if I try, it results into sever acidity
6. Avoid garlic, onion, pepper, radish and cabbage – I have been eating only cabbage which I will stop now
7. Eat green and leafy vegetables – I take soup everyday
8. Take light meals that make it easy for digestive system to quickly digest the food you eat. – I do follow this strictly
9. spicy, salty and acidic should be avoided. – – I do follow this strictly
10.Smoking and alcohol consumption must be stopped. – Never smoke or drink
11) Strictly drink water 1 hr before or after having your food. – Will make this a regular practice now
12) You have to avoid chilled water,cold drinks, preserved food stuff etc. - I do follow this also

I have got Carbo Veg 30 and Nat Sulp 30 and will now start taking it as per your suggestion

Thanks
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Thanks for the update. Yes you can take Homeopathy in such situations. Keep sufficient period between food and allopathic medicines. If you are taking any soup make sure it is freshly prepared (Avoid packed soup stuff available from stores),


Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie.
[message edited by Nikkie on Sat, 21 Apr 2012 05:20:48 BST]
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
Hello

Hope you are doing good
I am taking Cargo Veg 30 as per your instruction since last 6 days and though of updating you

I see about 20% improvements in my condition. I am not normal like what I was before 2 month even in morning hours but I face problem mainly in evening or night after eating something

Should I continue taking the same medicines?

Also I face problem in taking first dose at empty stomach as I cannot have tea for 45 min after that . As I told you earlier I am addicted to tea so I do not feel normal for the entire day as I always have mild headache. Is it possible to change timing for first dosage?

Thanks for all your help
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Thanks for the update. I am doing good :).

Please get hold of following medicine in liquid dilution:

1)Carduus Marianus Q (Mother tincture).
>> Take two doses of Carduus Marianus . First dose should be taken early morning empty stomach. Second dose before going to bed.

One dose means.
The medicine is in liquid dilution form. Add 5 drops of medicine in some half cup (Approx. 3 sip) water and stir with spoon. Sip up the content .

2) Lycopodium 30.
>> Take one dose of Lycopodium 30, in a day, two hrs after having your lunch.

One dose means.
The medicine is in liquid dilution form. Add 3 drops of medicine in some half cup (Approx. 3 sip) water and stir with spoon. Sip up the content .

Repeat 1 & 2 for week and update me.

Please follow homeopathy restrictions like no coffee, no raw onion/garlic, and no strong perfumes, don't eat or drink anything within 45 minutes before or after taking medicine.

I dont agree with your early morning tea habit (it is upto you now). Instead, you can have glass of hot water with honey.

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie.
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
Hi!

First of all I am extremely sorry for delay in reply

As I told you earlier I am in a very critical situation since last few days and not even working

I thank you for your honest feedback on “morning tea”. Probable I am finding it difficult as I am going through a bad phase these days

I have followed all the rules of homeopathy medicines very strictly

I could not manage to get new medicines and also I did not continue with Carbo Veg 30 and this made me realize that I have not been able to judge properly. Probable Carbo Veg 30 was working because after stopping it I am back to square one

Should I continue taking it for few more days?

Please forgive me if I cannot reply to you post soon

Thanks for all your kind help
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago
Thanks for the update. Bad phases don’t last long, don’t worry you will be OK.

By the time you get the new set of medicines (as prescribed in my previous mail) you can take Carbo Veg. for few more days.

It is ok! If you dint replied my post in a time bond schedule, you had a valid reason for that. Enjoy your day.

Keep me updated.

Blessings & Prayers,
Nikkie
 
Nikkie 8 years ago
Hi!

I tried to continue with your prescribed medicines but am extremely sorry to mention that I could not because of my health

I will get back to you once I am normal and back to routine

Thanks a lot for you help and I look forward to your help in future also
 
medhelpseeker 8 years ago

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